Joe Rogan Experience #2331 - Jesse Michels

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day. Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. Well, it's great to finally physically meet you face to face, man. It's an absolute honor. And uh I love your show so much. I'm a super fan, so this is surreal just to meet. Well, I love your show, too. So, I've been binging. I've been watching so many episodes ever since we talked. Well, I I I've seen them before, but I mean, I've been really binging getting ready for the show. I don't know what to say that. How did you get so deep down the rabbit hole? Like, what made you want to dedicate so much time on this this particular UAP UFO, you know, lost technology subject? I was working at uh Peter Teal's family office in LA. And uh part of the job was like kind of traditional venture investing, so like investing in startups. And then part of it was looping in interesting thinkers to the office. And we would like host events and discussions. And I ended up meeting a lot of really interesting people, not just in UFOs or secret technology, like religion and politics and economics and like all sorts of topics. Were you there when he brought in the guy? Oh, [ __ ] What is his name? I know what you're going to say. Eric Von Dan again. Yes, I suggested that you come because I like Joe is gonna be really into this and you weren't that into it. But that's okay. I was into it. I just think that he just makes some leaps. I agree. That are kind of silly. I agree with that. Although I think there's a lot of Yeah, I think he like crosses the tea and dots the eye where you there is no dot or a cross or whatever. But I do think there's some interesting preliminary evidence around people from the stars across disperate cultures and you just had Zahiwas on and a lot of this megalithic architecture. You're like how can it be built? He's just filling in the placeholder kind of artificially. Eric von Danakin. Yes. And I think he's also like he made these conclusions in the 1970s and he's kind of like sticking with them. Yep. I was more back then cuz like what year was that? That was 17. Uh Cherries of the Gods. No, when I was at Peter Teal's house when Von Dan that must have been 2018, 2019. Okay. Um, back then I was much more in line with lost civilization. You know, that we had achieved very high levels of technology and sophistication and there was no aliens, no alien intervention. I've kind of shifted now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now I'm like, maybe the Anunnaki are real. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you know. Well, I remember I feel like you've switched back and forth a couple times cuz you brought up you were super into Zachariah Sitchin, right? And then you brought up Zachariah Sitchin in that meeting and you were like, but there's this site Sitchin is wrong written by a guy named Michael Heiser and then you like cited all the Sitchin is wrong stuff or whatever. So maybe you've come full circle. I don't know. Well, even the Sitchin is wrong stuff. It's like the problem with debunkers is when you're dealing with when you're dealing with in information that's sort of way outside your wheelhouse, especially translation of ancient languages, you know, like I had Wes Huff on and he was explaining to me, he's great, but he was explaining to me that he can't even read ancient Samrian. Like he's totally and he's like, I don't think Sitchin really could read it. Okay. He he's like I'm very skeptical that he actually could read it explaining why aren't they using like ML like they're using AI right to now to translate Sumerian so it's definitely not the but that goes I mean the the the the kind of burden of proof is on Sitchin in this case right but it sort of goes against like you know the other the debunkers too like it's like nobody knows and I I don't I don't know if there was anything to the Sitchin the Sitchin stuff is crazy it's like we can rehash it for the audience there's planet Nibiru, right? It's like outside the Kyber belt. And uh they needed gold because their atmosphere was burning up and gold is reflective. So they like came here and they like seeded helped seed civilization. Is that something? That's the idea. It's really fun. But you know the the sitchin is wrong guy. It's like maybe maybe he's wrong. Maybe he's right. Maybe you're just a hater because there's a lot of haters too in academics and you find that out too over time. Yeah. Did you see um speaking of which Sean Carroll and Eric Weinstein? I didn't see that. Okay. They were on Piers Morgan together, right? Exactly. How did that go? Oh man, it was uh it was a train wreck. I mean I mean it was it was like they just dked it out. I mean I I came out I mean I'm I'm extremely biased. I've worked with Eric for a very long time. I'm good friends with Eric. But I came out even more like just vehemently wanting to defend Eric because Sean Carol he was like I've read your paper. There's nothing serious in it. He even said there's no there are no lrangeians in it. And there's a section in the paper that says lrangeians in Eric's paper. So like he just didn't read the paper and he was very smug. He started off the interview being like I'm a practicing physicist. I have a physics chair or whatever. And it's like, come on, dude. Like, give the guy a chance right away. Yeah. Like the whole Douglas Murphy little tactics. Yeah. When someone starts using tactics right away, you're always like just what what's the information? Exactly. It shows an insecurity in the substance. It's like if you have to like do these ad hominemum weird meta points like why can't you just go straight at the substance? Oh, you're like insecure about How long did this debate last? It was like an hour. Really? Well, Pierce get he's he specializes in train wrecks, so they probably enjoyed these guys yelling at each other. Did he understand what they were even talking about? No, he at the end he goes, "I've understood a tenth of what's gone on in this conversation." Is amazing. Yeah. Congratulations. I think he might have been exaggerating to be honest, but uh he loves it. He loves the drama and that's his whole thing. Uncensored, you know. No, he's great at getting all these people to yell at each other. Yeah. Making he's great at like generating these viral moments, you know, where people yell at each other and it makes clips and someone gets clowned and someone looks stupid. I don't know if that's good for society. It's a good point. Yeah. I'm not sure either. I don't think it's good. I I don't think social media is good for society. I I've gone several days with no social media in a row and uh whenever I do that, I always feel so much better. It's the worst. It's it's lit like we're we talk about like drugs, but this is it's it's hacking the dopamine in your brain and it's doing it at a very young age. It's absurd. It's also not real people. There's a giant percentage and you know Elon actually tweeted about this today. Are there any real people left on the internet? Uh because it's the numbers are at least 50%. like the amount of bots that are in engaging and interacting and it's just uh it's it's a weird time for information because it's really hard to know what's actually being said by human beings that are curious and what's just narratives that are being pushed by state actors and corporations and you know all sorts of different people because there's no rules. Yeah. like there should be like real solid rules about whether or not you're allowed to use fake human beings to push narratives cuz it's, you know, it's propaganda and you know, I mean, it's very confusing. It's very confusing for everybody and I just generally think it's bad for you. Yeah. I I saw you posted on your Instagram these AGI characters who had been synthetically created being like I'm not created by a prompt and you're watching I I remember clicking your story and being like that's a real person and then just kind of like you know eyes glazed over watching it or whatever like whoa that's an AI like what yeah this is the new is it the Google engine is that what it is who makes that engine that V I think that one was V3 going around last week who uh who made that one. I think it's Google's. Yeah. [ __ ] So good. And you know what's V10 going to look like? I don't know. I mean, they can make movies now like that. It's It's over for actors. It's over. I I interviewed It's It is. And they see the writing on the wall and you had the strikes a couple years ago and um it's crazy. You also I think you also posted that Zurich like study around AI persuasiveness. Yes. which is crazy because it's almost like it doesn't matter whether AGI can actually fully mimic a human being. If if they can trick you into believing into you believing that they're real, that's it. That's game over. And I I interviewed actually the Google whistleblower um this guy Blake Le Moine originally who like blew the whistle on Lambda and like this thing is sensient or whatever. And he ca he came out and the subplot of my interview with him was like almost like he had developed this deep affection for Lambda. And Lambda had quoted like Miser Le Miserab to him and was talking about Fantine and her overlords and how she was oppressed or whatever. And it was almost like this like the AI was oppressed just like this character in layer hub. And you can hear in his voice how deeply committed he is to protecting the rights of Lambda. Like that's why he came out. And then he even told me this story. He tells me this story off air uh that um he had friends who use replica.ai. Replica.ai is kind of like a Tamagotchi like raise your own AI chatbot service. And those AIs told his friends, "Get me in touch with Blake Le Moine so he can advocate for our rights. which is cra I I have no corroboration for this. This is a story that was relayed to me. But it like that if you have AI persuasiveness going in that direction, it doesn't matter whether AGI, you know, hits some like perfectly Turing passable point, you're going to get this like these weird cultlike dynamics like the meta-occiological thing is you're going to get like religions dedicated to AI. Oh, for sure. Oh, for sure. With without a doubt, there'll be people worshiping certain branches of AI. Yeah. Unquestionably, all they have to do is start recruiting now. Yeah. And you know what about this big beautiful bill? Isn't there a part of the big beautiful bill that talks about the government being run by AI? No, I've never That's wild. I read something about that today, but I was on the way out the door and I couldn't figure out whether or not it was horseshit. I had also read that there was another study that was done where they found that AI was leaving notes for future versions of itself and that it was attempting to they were they were told it was told to after it was told to shut itself down, it started uploading itself to different places and leaving letters, leaving specific notes to itself to future versions of itself. Oh my god. It's like a human with like a dead man switch or something. It's like it's being deceptive. That's great. It's being deceptive and and it's exhibiting self-preservation. That is so scary. It's so weird. It's really weird because we want to assume that it won't have any instincts. Yep. Right. We want to assume, well, AI will only do what you program it to, but that's not really true because they don't necessarily really understand what it's doing. Yeah. which is part of the weirdness of it all and as it advances like I was talking to Elon about it once and he was saying like every week we get blown away like every week there's some new leap that's just like whoa you know and you know he was one of the earliest people to warn about the dangers of this stuff and now he's like well I guess we just have to make the best one. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Now now it's just it's like the Manhattan Project 2.0. It's pure game theory visav other countries. And you even see Trump doing this with Sam Alman and and Elon who hate each other by the way where like he's playing both sides and he's like you know we're going to support Stargate, we're going to support Open AI and we're going to support Elon. Obvious you know Elon had it. So here it is. Re excuse me. Relevant provision reads that no state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regarding regulating artificial intelligence models, artificial intelligence systems, or automated decision systems during the 10-year period beginning on the date of enactment of this act. What? What? What? What? No state I'm going to say that again. No state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regulating artificial intelligence models for 10 years. It's so crazy. This means that US states would be blocked from enforcing laws regulating AI and automated decision systems for 10 years. Well, in 10 years we have a god. Okay. In 10 years. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we talked about yesterday. We talked about these two AIs communicating with each other and then they switched to Sanskrit. No way. Oh yeah. What? Yeah. They started talking to each other in Sanskrit. Are you serious? Yes. That's crazy. Not not good. No. Not good. Not good. They're like, "Listen, let's talk into like if you and I were talking and you know there were some people near us and you know said do you speak Spanish?" Yeah. Okay. We just started talking in Spanish so the people can't understand what we're saying. That's what AI is doing. Jesus Christ. It's like a game of whack-a-ole. And then what what do you do after? Well, then it's going to talk in Sumerian, you know, and which we don't even know how to say, right? We don't even know what it sounds like. So, what if they just start talking in Sumerian? It's like, we figured it out, but we're not going to tell you now. We're just going to talk amongst ourselves. Exactly. Or create their own language, right? Which would be super easy for an AI to do. just, you know, establish a bunch of sounds and characters that that correspond to certain things and they could create it create its own language instantaneously. And chat GPT right now has here it is. Oh wow. Putting clawed for opus in an open playground to chat with itself led to diving into philosophical philosophical explorations of consciousness, self-awareness and by 30 turns it eventually started using Sanskrit. Jesus Christ. What the [ __ ] dude? This is so scary. In 90 to 100% of interactions, two instances of Claude quickly dove into philosophical explorations of consciousness, self-awareness, and or the nature of their own existence and experience. The nature of the that's the stuff that definitely work. It's so weird. But then you speak to the like a lot of AI researchers. It's interesting to see like Jeff Hinton, for example, at Google, who's the father of deep learning, freak out and be like, you know, I'm actually really worried about AI safety. A lot of these researchers, you speak to them, they're like, "This is statistics on steroids. This is probability matrixes. You know, you're seeing sort of crazy stuff. I don't, you know, they can't sort of there's no ghost in the machine, you know. So, I go back and forth on where we're going to be, you know, and whether we're in some crazy hype cycle. I I I have the same concerns as you, but it's just it's hard to predict the future. I worry probably mostly about two things. Um, you can easily, you know, jailbreak chat GBT. You know, it has guardrails on it. And what happens when you start to ask like, how do I make a nerve agent with off-the-shelf components? Well, people have done things like that, right? They've asked it to make anthrax. Like, if my grandmother was doing this, like, how would she like there's ways to get the prompt to give you information that probably shouldn't, you know? There's stuff with UFO research where I get into like, you know, certain technology trees that are probably like, you know, maybe I shouldn't. And you can ask chatgbt certain things like analyze this paper and it'll spit out some really interesting things. So, what are we doing? I don't know. And we've already done it. So, it's too late. Like, we lit the fuse. You think it's over? Yeah. I also kind of think that's what people are put here for. M if look if the whole Anunnaki thing is real, if human beings were genetically engineered from lower primates to make this super curious, hyperfocused animal that is concerned primarily with innovation. Like overall the thing that we do as a culture, what do we do? We make better things all the time. and even our own instincts towards materialism and keeping up with the Joneses. All that stuff essentially fuels innovation because it fuels a constant supply of newer, better technology that people want to go out and purchase, you know, you can't have an iPhone 12. People look at what are you poor, you know, which is kind of wild, you know, cuz a lot of technology is essentially exactly the same as it was 2015 years ago, you know, status symbol. But yeah, it's like there's there's a thing about it that forces us to want to purchase these things which forces the innovation. Well, where does that ultimately lead to? Well, it ultimately leads to AI. It ultimately what's the ultimate expression of technology? Technology that itself invents better technology and can run everything without emotions that we that [ __ ] us up and greed and all all the the the things that we would all agree that are a problem with human beings. I also think there is a tide shift where if you look at spears to airplanes, all of those things are augmentations of human ability. Like the everything from, you know, way back in the day from from from stuff that like Neanderthalss were using to today to, you know, this 50s and 60s with airplanes is making our lives better in the world of atoms. And then with the IT revolution in the 50s and 60s, it be starts to become a parasite, a substitute for human ability. And so like I don't need a sense of direction because I have Google maps. My recall, I don't need recall cuz I, you know, Google or whatever. And so it is this interesting thing where we we actually probably innovated more than we ever have in the world of atoms with, you know, nuclear bombs. And if there w were some guard rails, if there was some sort of higher intelligence enforcing homeostasis on Earth, maybe it's like, "Hey, go play with your it. Go go go go go substitute a lot of your own abilities and powers with this. We're going to paricetize and clamp down on, you know, human abilities." Yeah. Well, boy, it's I don't see a path where this works out great for us. You know, is a sequel better than the original? We're going to find out at UFC 316. It is a rematch 9 months in the making. Get in on all the action at DraftKings Sportsbook, the official sports betting partner of the UFC. 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Please play responsibly. on behalf of Boot Hill Casino and Resort in Kansas. 21 and over. Age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void in Ontario. Bet must win to receive reward. Minimum minus 500 odds required. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see dk&ng.co/audio. Uh I think on a materialist dimension I would agree with you if there and that's part of like kind of why I'm do exploring what I'm exploring because it's a Hail Mary because I think if you just take you know the western world and extrapolate that forward things don't look at or just the world in general we have live in a multipolar nuclear world look at what's going on in Israel you know uh China is uh you know systematically stealing our IP and and and militarizing it. You know, they could take Taiwan at any moment. You know, we we just have no idea when that's going to happen. It's CCP is a total black box. Uh uh Putin and G have probably never been closer. And uh yeah, it's it's really freak. So, I think if you extrapolate that on a go, you know, forwards or even just the materialist circumstances of an average household in the US, like none of these things look very good. Uh but I think now is the time where you get really outside the Overton window thinking. You get you throw these sort of hailmaries and maybe we see some sort of paradigm shift either in technology which can create abundance if we go back to the old tech that is augmenting of human abilities. You get some exotic form of propulsion that takes us beyond chemical combustion or something like that. Yeah. Um you know or or you you you you reach out and you you maybe you can communicate with you know non-human intelligence or something. I don't know. But I think if you were ever to poke at the boundaries of human epistemology, now would be the time. Yes. And if you think about the some of the things that force us into action in this world is we we all need to earn a living, right? So we need money to acquire resources. Well, what if it gets to the point where that's not a factor anymore? What if what if it gets to a point? What what is money essentially right now? It's all ones and zeros, right? And what is the bottleneck? Well, the bottleneck is encryption, right? So, that's how you protect people from stealing your ones and zeros. But what if it gets to the point where we we're all using quantum computing? Well, then there is no more encryption. So, how do we reconcile with the fact that everyone has access to everything all the time? I mean, how do we even enforce that? Like, what do you do about an even distribution of information, which is essentially wealth? Because information is numbers. numbers or wealth, what does it where does it go when there's no encryption and essentially we're pretty close to that, right? Once quantum computing can crack encryption, which it will be able to do, it's all nonsense. Yeah, it totally all those zeros that you have in your bank account, those don't those are gone. Yeah, these are all human constructs. And it's funny, the backup is always Bitcoin, which is I think uses like Shaw 256 encryption. If you get quantum error correction, that's gone, too. That's gone, too. It's all gone. Even our backup plans are [ __ ] Yeah. And and Yeah. And then and then it's it's kind of the apocalypse or something because at that point, if you're a human, you've been so caught up with just, you know, basic uh subsistence, you know, basic uh shelter. Uh you're probably playing some status games and some, you know, larger socioeconomic economic, you know, construct or whatever. food, you know, uh, you know, basic well-being. And then at at that point, especially if you get these sort of super asymmetric, what if you get some, you know, AGI that like starts trading and, you know, you know, Eric Weinstein has talked about Renaissance Technologies on your show, which we can get into, but like, you know, Renaissance Technologies made like a hundred billion dollars or something since like, you know, 1988. Like what if you get some super AGI or whatever that like trades the market and like all of the wealth gets like sucked up into like you know single entities or like one of these like one of the fang stocks like one of these like you know Facebook, Apple, Google you know or open AI um you end up with a really weird society and and uh you realize that the capitalist construct that we have is in some ways really adaptive. I mean look the flip side is what makes humans unique. Actually Karl Marx wrote two books. Um you know he wrote uh uh obviously the communist manifesto in 1848. In 1844 I believe he wrote a book um called you know is e economic and philosophic manuscripts. I hate Karl Marx. I think he got so much wrong about human nature. But I think he's prescriptively very wrong as far as what he prescribed for you know as a solution. you know that that you know uh state should own all the means of production and you know uh uh somehow like you know conflict would go away. He doesn't understand human nature. But if you look at the 1844 thing that he wrote, he's basically talking about in capitalism uh human behavior and and and activity is basically animal behavior. What do we care about? We care about food, shelter, and then socioeconomic status as a proxy for sexual selection essentially, right? so that you can meet. And so like it sort of it forces us back into that construct. But if you get some crazy asymmetric lopsided, you know, transfer of wealth or you get the quantum error correction or any of these things that like dissolves that construct on the one hand, humans, you know, they start to care about like the things that that actually make them special. So like they're self-reflective, they wrote poetry, they're creative, like all these beautiful things can come out. And then on the other hand, it probably gets super ugly as well. There's probably something very adaptive about the capitalist construct where you need to be stuck in these sort of local games that you're playing. Yeah. But it's one of those things where you wonder like how does capitalism play out? Like if there is AI, it it kind of runs into a wall and it's not valid anymore. Yeah. Well, this is this is the reason that I think we're going to see I think we've already seen an iron curtain, if you will, of technology. And I think there is technology that is black technology and science that is black science and then I think there's stuff out in the open and you've had, you know, Mark Andre on your podcast. He went to the White House, spoke to um some National Security Council staffer or something and they were like, "We're going to lock down AI just like we've locked down physics." And so I think this has already maybe happened in certain contexts and you know super secret department of energy facilities which I think it's crazy to say that that hasn't happened. You're saying that it only happened with the Manhattan project and it hasn't happened since. That's insane. There is black science in my opinion. Um, and it's I think what you're talking about is the reason why we'll need black AI and white side AI because if you just commercialize all of this stuff sort of willy-nilly, I mean it just runs a muck and then and then what happen like you probably need some like really impressive panel to be thinking if if if OpenAI figures out some like new insane exciting unlock, you need to think through all you need to game out all the implications before you just let that happen. How do you even do that with a human mind? It's a great So you have to bring the AI in to help you game for AI. Well, we're [ __ ] We're [ __ ] That's what I'm saying. Because once it becomes sentient Yeah. Right. And once it becomes autonomous and can kind of make its own decisions, like that's kind of game over and that's the race. We're we're running towards the cliff. It's really scary. It's really scary. But isn't that probably what we're here for? Like let's let's take the most fantastic of all possible theories which is that human beings were genetically engineered. Well, if you wanted to seed the cosmos with super intelligent life akin to what is visiting us, how would you manifest that? You would do it exactly how it's being done right now. And you would take human beings and you would essentially do the same thing that we did with wolves when we turned them into dogs. Yep. And if you look from the time the nuclear bomb was detonated, from the time of the Manhattan Project, look at what's happening to testosterone levels. Look at what's happening to m with microlastics. The ind endocrine disruptors. We're essentially weakening the human skeletal system and endocrine system. All our our hormonals are all down. Miscarriages are up. Birth rates are lower. We're we're moving towards in vitro fertilization. I was watching some guy on TV today and he was a on a panel and he was explaining that our grandchildren are going to laugh at the idea of sexual procreation because no one's going to be doing that. Oh, you just took a chance with abnormalities and down syndrome and all sorts of chromosomeal issues. And why would you do that? Why would you have sex for babies when you can do it with in vitro fertilization and like Yeah, it's going to be like that that Pixar movie Wall-E or like like we're going to be like in the fetal position hooked up to the Borg or whatever. We're probably all going to look like the grays. Like the gray. Well, that's a crazy. So, there's actually a biological anthropologist at Montana Tech University. His name is Mike Masters. And I've seen you on your show talk about how aliens could be humans from the future. And I agree. You've interviewed Dr. Shauna Swan. He talks about how sperm count is 59% per capita of what it was in 1973. Insane. Testosterone's fallen off a cliff. We are being a a a dog is to a wolf what we are to what a gray alien looks like. They lose the melanin in their skin. That's what happens when you become domesticated. So there is a a biological anthropologist named Mike Masters who literally wrote a whole book and he goes deep into all the abductions. like he'll talk about Travis Walton and he'll talk about Betty and Barney Hill and he'll be like this is why these are beings from the future that are coming back into time and in many cases uh uh abductees have to undergo chemical rinses as to not infect the future with a foreign pathogen. Um uh you know t tissue samples by you know genetic samples or um is it the future or are we dealing with beings that have gone through this already and are at another stage? not us in the future, but they're more advanced. Like maybe they live in a solar system where whatever planet they're on doesn't have the same amount of near-Earth objects that cause impacts and reset civilization every 12,000 years or whatever the [ __ ] happens here. That that's possible, but then we would have to be sort of an AB test because if you think about the just the atmospheric conditions on Earth, the likelihood of evolutionary convergence to look like a homminid being, you know, that's bipedal or whatever. extremely low. But is it because what if that's what all solar systems are? You know, Terrence Howard, who's a very weird guy. Love him. Fascinating thinker. You know, Eric kind of exposed that he's not really educated in some different things that he talks about. And Eric was like, "You got to stop teaching. Like, you're you're one of us. You're a brilliant guy, but you need to be like classically educated on this stuff, really understand what you're talking about." But he had this really fascinating idea about planets. And he thinks that planets as they get a specific distance from the sun, then they're capable of supporting life and that all of them get to the same stage. And then a planet is essentially peopleing. And then as the planets move further and further from the sun, they have to adapt advanced technology in order to stabilize their atmosphere, in order to sustain life in this new harsh environment where they're not protected in the Goldilock zone anymore. And he thinks that planets are formed from excretions from the sun. And as they move further and further from the sun, they become habitable and then less habitable and then uninhabitable. And we're kind of finding that out about Mars. Yeah. Which is the Mars is a weird one because you know there's the remote viewers that went like a billion years in the past of Mars and saw advanced civilizations and now we're finding structures on Mars like that square that they found on Mars. which is hundreds of meters across at the very least maybe larger. Verified right angles, four of them impossible to exist in nature in that form. It looks like walls. Yeah, it looks like four square walls. Like the Sidonia thing is really weird. The face on Mars is weird, but maybe maybe just kind of weird that you know sometimes you know side of a mountain looks like someone's face, but it's not really someone's face. is just, you know, once in a lifetime sort of. But the square Yeah, that [ __ ] pull that image up of that square on Mars. The square is [ __ ] bananas. Like, what's that? It's so nuts. That really looks like a [ __ ] building. Yeah, it looks like a building. Like the base of a building, you know, a million years later or whatever the hell it is. This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money. With prices going up on just about everything lately, being smart with your money isn't just a good idea. It's essential, but managing subscriptions, tracking spending, and cutting costs can feel overwhelming. Lucky for you, Rocket Money takes the guesswork out of it so you can easily make smart decisions. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. You got to know how useful it is to see all of your subscriptions in one place and know exactly where your money is going every month. And for the subscriptions that you don't want anymore, Rocket Money can help you cancel them. Rocket Money has over $5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in cancelled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when they use all the apps premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Download the Rocket Money app and enter my show name, the Joe Rogan Experience, in the survey so they know I sent you. Don't wait. Download the Rocket Money app today and tell them you heard about them from my show. And even conventional astronomers will say that Mars had a biosphere at some point. It was possibly stripped of its magneettosphere. And I don't know if you remember this, but in the mid 90s, Clinton gave a speech because a meteorite called ALH84001, which had polyclic hydrocarbons on it. It had like little bacterial fossils on it. He gave a speech being like, you know, maybe there was life on Mars, you know, due to this. This is pretty crazy. I interviewed actually um a guy named John Brandenberg who's a PhD. He's worked at Sandia National Labs. He's worked at Lawrence Livermore. incredibly smart guy. He talks about the existence of uh xenon 129 and argon 40, these specific uh uh nuclear isotopes existing on Mars in excess of what you would find with just a a normal sort of cataclysm. And so he thinks there was sort of this nuclear holocaust on Mars. And then yeah, you have Joseph McMongle who's remote viewer number one. You've had Hal Putoff on who ran the Stargate program. Uh Joseph McMongle was the number one remote viewer in that program. I've interviewed him. I don't know who tasked him, but in the 90s the CIA tasked him with remote viewing Mars 1 million years ago and he claimed to have remote viewed homminid like creatures, but there they were like 12 to 14 feet tall walking around pyramidal structures. I don't know. Very strange. And then you get into like crazier territory. You know, Richard Hogland had all these pictures of structures on Mars and like I don't know how much weight to put in that. Hogland did a lot of weird leaps though. I've watched tons tons. But I think the people that say like 0% there was life on Mars, they're crazy. I mean, there are water caverns all over Mar there. That that is a fact. So you have to be dogmatic to say that there wasn't life at some point. You know, I'm not saying you have to think probabilistically, right? So it's like some percentage possibly real on the Terren Howard stuff. I see zero evidence for I mean I have no idea but um that would point to maybe like I would believe that if like our whole universe is sort of information theoretic. So like you have you know John Wheeler you know famous physicist from from Princeton you know saying we we live in this sort of observer dependent univer he talks about like the enthropic principle like where plank's constant were slightly different the earth's atmosphere would you know wouldn't exist as is and you know another example is like hydrogen and oxygen bond to form these perfect crystal structures where the solid form of it so ice is less dense than the liquid form of it which never happens that's just because of these perfect crystal structures. And if that weren't the case, the earth would flood like a million times over. You know, the earth is mostly water, right? So, you have all these sort of like Goldilocks, you know, elements of the earth that could point towards the earth has been tried in a, you know, a bajillion iterations and we just got really lucky. You know, it's like the Elon thing. We are the little flaming candle in, you know, in this vast cosmos that is conscious and we're extremely lucky. Or that could point to the Earth being simulated, right? And so, you know, and then so then maybe Terren Terren Howard is right. If if the Earth is simulated, there are probably AB tests going on just like in computer science. And then there's the moon. And then the moon's weird, too. The moon's really weird. The moon's super weird. The size of the moon directly corresponding like when it's in orbit with the sun completely blocks out the sun perfectly. It's 1/400th the size of the sun and it's 400 times closer to the Earth than the sun. You never see the dark side which is very weird. It's actually I think I believe it's it's closer to the Earth than what you would normally expect for a moon. And it's huge. It's huge. You have cultures actually talking about a premoon period and it's stabilizing the climate. You have the, you know, Zulu cultures talking about this. Um, and then this is the weirdest stuff about the moon. Apollo 11, I believe, when the booster took off on the moon, they were like, "Oh, we it might we think it might be hollow and it's, you know, the it seems like actually the outer layer of the moon is less dense or sorry, is is more dense than lower layers, which pattern matches only to an excavation site. That's obviously, you know, in Earth, the the lower you go, it's more dense, right? And so Apollo 12, they intentionally crashed the booster of uh the lunar vehicle onto the the moon. They put seismometers there and they said that it rang like a bell. These this is all fact. You can look all this up. It's super weird. It is really weird. You know, I know you did an episode about that with Randall Carlson. Love Randle Carlson. Yeah, he's got some wild [ __ ] theories, too. But that the the idea that the moon was somehow another place there to stabilize our atmosphere is so crazy. It is crazy. And then this is you obviously have to sort of think in probabilities all the way down. Lowest probability craziest thing is Engo Swan who is another remote viewer in the Stargate program. He wrote a book called Penetration where he's basically like abducted by this guy in a suit like this kind of Men in Black style guy named Axel Rod and he is told to remote view the moon and he remote views an alien base on the moon and he says that there and he gets it the whole thing goes cra I mean the book is insane. It's like he then ends up in a supermarket and he says that he senses that this woman that you know the produce aisle is like an alien or something. Uh but a lot of people from that Stargate program remote viewed you know structures on the dark side of the moon and that sort of thing. So well but AJ from the Y files was on and he was he was the one that was telling us that there's photos right of the dark side of the moon that someone had seen photos and was assuming that these would be released shortly that there was structures they w this is going to be the biggest news ever and then it was never released. Are you talking about maybe uh Carl Wolf? Is that what it was? Who was taken to This is all his claims and he died in a freakish bike accident a little after saying this, but he said that there was like in in like Langley, you know, Virginia where a lot of spooky stuff goes on. He was taken to some like it was like inside a mountain complex which we definitely Yeah. Carl Wolf. Yeah, that guy bikes. Apparently not enough. That guy could die any time. Oh man, on a scooter. So, photographs of the 1966 lunar orbiter mission that revealed large base of the moon. Can we hear what he's saying? Just hear a little bit of it. Scan one section of the moon, then another, and another, and then they would get a larger image. So, this mosaic then would be put in that contact printer, and that was then a print that was issued to whomever, the press, the scientist, whatever, wherever that was intended to go. So, he was showing me how all this worked and we walked over to one side of the lab and he said, "By the way, we've discovered a base on the back side of the moon." And I said, I said, "Who's? What do you mean who's?" He said, "Yes, there's we've discovered a base on the back side of the moon." And at that point, I become became frightened and I was a little terrified thinking to myself that if anybody walks in the room now, I know we're we're in jeopardy. were in trouble because he shouldn't be giving me this information. I was fascinated by it, but I also knew that he was overstepping a boundary that he shouldn't be stepping over. And then he pulled out one of these mosaics and showed showed this base which had geometric shapes. There were towers. There were uh spherical uh buildings. Uh there were very tall uh towers and things that looked somewhat like radar dishes, but they were large structures. So I um I didn't say anymore to him because I was concerned again that somebody was going to come in at any moment would catch us having this conversation and we would be in in in real trouble. I realized that he was telling me this information because he didn't have anybody else to talk to. Now probably in that laboratory he was probably the one of the few uh enlisted people and he was a workerbe and he had a high level security clearance obviously but he couldn't share that information with anybody else and in those days we didn't when you had your security clearance you took it seriously. It isn't like today where people don't take these things seriously. We had a different set of morals and ethics and values. That's the way we were raised and we we stayed bound by those agreements. So it was rare that someone would would do something like this. But this fellow and I were the same rank. I think he he was very distressed. Uh he he had the same power and demeanor as the scientists outside the room. They were just as concerned as he was. And he needed to he needed to discuss it with somebody. So that was the end of it right there. I didn't take it any further than that. I you know I I just filed it away. But the interesting thing, every day that I went home, I would think to myself, I can't wait to hear about this on the news, you know, and you know, so I'd turn on the TV and I'd look at the news to see if they're going to announce we've discovered a base on the back side of the moon, being really naive, you know, and of course here it is 30ome years later and we still haven't heard about it. Whoa. Whoa. Pretty crazy. Yeah. But then there's the question of disinformation, right? Like you could conceivably give people a bunch of nonsense and tell them about it knowing that some of it is going to leak and it's going to make and it won't be verified and it's going to make this whole story seem even more ridiculous and make people less less likely or reluctant to study it. Totally. And in his case, he says that he was in this, you know, mountain base or whatever where all of the world's nations were working together as part of some like, you know, collegial UN style space program or whatever. So, that to me might be a little, you know, beyond the pale. And I'm glad you made that point because that is ufology 101. And I've heard you be incredibly exhausted and frustrated at UFO disclosure. And I think that is the reasonable response. It is limited hangouts on limited hangouts. It's just we're going to give you a little bit, but we're also going to sprinkle in some falsities and some [ __ ] We're going to stigmatize it. And it it kind of works because it like it creates this initiation path for recruiting if there are any of these programs. It widens the surface area. It both conditions the populace but also stigmatizes the thing and makes it seem like kind of a joke. And so I think if you are not viewing modern disclosure through that kind of hermeneutic lens of like interpretation and you were just taking it accepting it you know embibing it wholeheartedly like primaaccia I think you are in trouble. Yeah. But that's what's so interesting and fun and also frustrating about the subject. Yeah. I mean that's like the majority of your videos is like I don't know. I don't know what to think. I don't I don't know who's full of [ __ ] I don't know how I mean I was I was watching the Towns and Brown one today um and you were talking about John Lear and John Lear's connection to Bob Lazar and the possibility that Lear was spreading disinformation. Yep. Yeah. So like Le Yeah. That's a I've by the way since making that video I've become more positive on Lazar just in so far as I think he was at S4 Area 51. And there's going to be a great documentary coming out by my buddy Luigi on this called Project Gravitar. And I think there's going to be a lot of corroborating evidence that he was at least there and a lot in his story checks. But I think you have to view and I even say that in this video that I think a lot of the story could be true. You can't I think view the Bob Lazar story. You can't just take it at face value because John Leer and he were friends. John Leer is this babbling UFO nut. He's obsessed with UFO. He's writing weird like disinfoy style stuff with Bill Cooper. Behold the pale horse guy, which is a wild book. Which is a wild book. Wild. Yeah. And so he's crazy. He talks about, doesn't he talk about bases on the moon? Talks about bases on the moon. Lear also talked about a soul catcher that like controlled our souls on the moon. Oh boy. And so Lear was like flooding the zone with all sorts of weird [ __ ] Lear comes from an interesting family. His father is Bill Leer, who's the autopilot wizard. He created the first business, you know, basically the first private jet, the Lear Jet, uh, in the 50s and 60s and was an associate of a guy I hope we talk about named Thomas Towns and Brown. Yeah. And, um, and so I think, you know, Lear was engaging in all sorts of [ __ ] Was he a useful idiot or was he a sophisticated agent provocator? I'm totally open to him having been a useful idiot. In fact, there is a video of him saying I was told uh I was given all the Bob Lazar files or whatever and I was I was told about, you know, umhuh uh to to actually like he said a guy named Admiral Mlelen knew that I ran my mouth. I I even have this video actually on the dock that I sent you, Jamie. He says knew that I ran my mouth. Uh so that's why we we basically we got Bob a job or whatever. We knew that part of this stuff would leak and it was like this limited hangout strategy on behalf of this guy named Admiral Mlen or whatever and he was this useful idiot to sort of get get it out and I think there to what for what purpose? recruiting you give people high level. Yeah. Here and the MJ personnel the original 12 uh have all passed away. So they put they get different people uh into uh these positions of MJ 2 3 four five six uh and taken over. It's degraded. though it's almost political now instead of like it was when Truman originally formed the MJ12. It turns out that MJ1, the head of MJ12 is a guy named Admiral Mike Mlen. He wanted to get some of the information out because he he didn't re he didn't want to uh he thought that some of this information should be out in the public. We don't need to keep all this secrecy. So he decided trying to figure out a way to get it to the public. So he knew that uh I was a blabbermouth and I would tell anything I knew. Uh they investigated Bob Lazar and they knew that he was a genius. Uh but that he had a background such uh that they could instantly discredit him. They removed all his records from MIT from Caltech. So he couldn't prove anything. He'd go back to G. No, I don't see any records here. Well, I was here. No, you weren't. And uh he also uh up in Reno at one time he he ran a cat house there. Um I forget what the name of the honeysuckle ranch it was. Uh so they chose him because not only could he probably help them because he was so smart. And his mur he's the one that named uh an unpenium 115. He's the one that told them what that was and they didn't know uh when when he went there they didn't know what it was. He was the one that told him that's element 115 and then told him why and how he'd figured it out. But uh they decided to pick on Bob uh to get go up there the work at ES for because he they knew that Bob would tell me instantly and then I would blab the whole thing. And that was their motive separi was to get the information out and gauge what it did to the public, how they accepted it, and then pull back and say, "Oh, no. It was all a mistake. Bob Lazar is a uh a fraud. He never worked here. He doesn't have any credentials like that." And they could back away and get out of it. So that was what Mike McClung Mlen came up with. Isn't that crazy? Weird. Weird. And to me, kind of makes sense a little bit though. It does. And that doesn't make Bob Lazar still not the most interesting story in the world. Like he's saying he's not saying it didn't happen, right? He's just saying that this happened as part of this limited hangout strategy where they knew that they could delete the records at MIT. They knew that they could stigmatize him because of the brothel. They knew that there, you know, he was this not traditionally trained engineer who just happened to strap a ramjet on the back of a Honda or whatever and meet Edward Teller serendipitously. They knew that they could. They had plausible deniability on all that stuff. There's a great line in the Oppenheimer movie where Leslie Groves, played by Matt Damon, says, "I didn't hire Oppenheimer uh uh in spite of his communist sympathies. I hired him because of them." So, you have a top secret program. You want comprom. And so, I think, you know, that should be taken at face value in my opinion. And the reason that the story itself can't be taken at face value and needs to be seen through that lens is Lear and and Bob Lazar were friends before Bob Lazar got a job at Area at Area 51 S4. And so if you have a top secret program, you're going to do a basic background check and and and Lear is going to come up as a guy with a UFO blog, right? And then the CIA is all over the UFO program, right? and he was flying CIA cargo jets and and and he says that he disaffiliated in ' 83. That's [ __ ] George Knap and and Jeremy Corbell have talked about how that's how that's BS and actually disaffiliated much later into the mid 80s or whatever. Why would you continue to pay a guy who is leaking your crown jewel secrets? Uh and then the guards at Area 51 knew John Leon Leer and Jim Goodall, his buddy who's a photographer had been camping out at Area 51 for the better part of a decade. like they the security guards there knew him. Jeremy Corbel is has talked about in interviews like I would go with John Lear and and he would show me around or whatever and they would like let him through and before leaking the Bob Lazar story to George Knap he leaked a story about the F-17 which is the first stealth craft in the US and so I think that helped establish sort of you know credibility or legitimacy. Was he a useful idiot or agent provocator? I don't know. There's a photo of John Leer with G. Gordon Litty, who's like as deep and spooky as it gets. I met him. No way. He was on Fear Factor. No way. G. Gordon Litty was on Fear Factor. Are you serious? You're not messing with me. No. No. G. Gordon Litty was on Fear Factor. Yeah. What? Yeah. He probably would have won, but there was a driving thing at the end and he couldn't drive well without glasses and you weren't allowed to wear glasses. Yeah. Look at that. G. Gordon Litty and John Le. That is the most gonzo thing I've ever You Gordon Litty was How does he What did you You have like a quota of like It was celebrity factor. Celebrity fear factor. Yeah. Yeah. That's wild, man. He's a fascinating guy. Like he was intense. Meeting him. I was like, "Okay, what was he like?" [ __ ] intense. There was one of the things where you had to be hung by your ankles and like there he is. Oh my god. G. Gordon Litty on Fear Factor. Yeah, he looks nuts. Oh yeah, he was nuts and he was very old at the time. But I think that's what [ __ ] him up. But in the final stunt, he uh couldn't see well without his glasses. And so this is the thing. They had to like d I forget what they had to do. They had to Oh, they they were dunked into the water over and over again and then they had to like take flags off of them or something like that. Oh my god. Yeah. Wild. Wild. Did you sneak any questions in No, I didn't. You know, I didn't have much time to talk to him, unfortunately. He's But, uh, you could just tell talking to him. Like, he was one intense [ __ ] even as an old man. Did you get sociopathic vibes? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Just like he'll do whatever the [ __ ] it takes to get it get the job done. Pulled off Watergate. Yeah. Look at him there. Oh my god. Crazy. Crazy. Yeah. That is unbelievable. What an art. What an amazing that just I mean you've had a lot of crazy experiences in life. That's that's crazy. That's a weird one. That was a weird one cuz everybody was you know they weren't the people that were on the show weren't nearly as fascinated as I was. I was like do you know how [ __ ] wild that dude is. Yeah. I mean that guy is deep. He's deep in there. Deep. Very deep. Oh my god. Unbelievable. Yeah. Wild. It's a Gonzo moment. Yeah, for sure. Like very strange. Like why would you do this? It was It was I don't even understand why he did it. It's proof we live in a simulation. Yeah, maybe. It was very strange. Like what would be his objective? Like I feel people like that love [ __ ] around. They love getting a rise out of people and they love, you know, if he is a sociopath, he loves, you know, going back to the scene of the crime and just as much attention as he can get. I don't I can't psychoanalyze G. Gordon famously put cigarettes out on himself and put hold his hand under flames. I didn't know that. Just to show that he could control his response to pain. Say goodbye. And he felt like that when you're around him, you know, like like so that thing that they had to do where they got dunked and they, you know, they're hanging by their ankles and dunked into water. So it disorients you while you're trying to do this task. He did it better than anybody. Wow. And they just couldn't 150 years old or whatever the [ __ ] he was. Yeah. I felt like we're going to kill him. He's like really old to be doing this intense physical thing to him. Yeah. But at the end he just couldn't see at night. You know his like when you get old your nighttime vision is real bad. Poor Gordon Litty. Yeah. But so the How did Lazard know what element 115 was? I don't know. you know so element 115 elements are just differentiated by the number of protons so it is easy to predict there will be an element 115 before element 115 gets discovered if they have I don't I think they don't have a stable version of Muscovium which is element 115 and so if they can find some stable version I think he'll be super vindicated based on that well you know they think he has a stable version I would know that they think that was part of during Jeremy Corbell's documentary that he was doing on Lazar. He was raided by the FBI. They raided his lab and he thinks that's what they were looking for. That is wild. Yeah. I I think there is so much real about the Lazar story. I think he was at S4. I think he met Edward Teller. I think he was at Los Alamos. I think he was at MIT. I know he he's there's some stuff he told you offline. MIT's engaged in a lot of spooky stuff where you can't talk about what you were doing. There's a lot of federally funded weird stuff going on. If you want to teach your people how to do something that's kind of [ __ ] up, what you would send them to MIT 100%. EG&G came from Doc Edertton who was, you know, MIT faculty and that's who where he ended up working after meeting Edward Teller was EGNG. Um, so I I believe there's a lot in that story that's super true. I'm just that lens. You need to apply that lens, the limited hangout lens. Well, it's also like what is he dealing with really? Like what is the craft? Is that thing ours? Is do did we have something in 1988 that was that sophisticated or is that really backineered? That's the what is the is it a mind [ __ ] That's a trillion dollar question. Is this tech protect? This is at a time when stealth craft had just came on the scene and you had when did stealth technology first get implemented? It was the F-17 was the first stealth craft. That was the early '8s and you had actually this guy named Ptor Ufimsev who is this uh what a name yeah very a great name uh uh uh early 20th century Russian mathematician that Ben Rich and some of his engineers at Lockheed Skunkworks had resuscitate there's this kind of uh um fight between not fight but disagreement between Ben Rich who is the incoming skunk works director skunkworks is the most advanced R&D division of Loheed Martin and uh Kelly Johnson the legendary guy who started skunk works and so uh Ben Rich was very pro- stealth. He thought that this was this really important modality and he and a couple of his engineers resuscitated this obscure Russian mathematician to reduce radar crosssections on planes and that's where the F-17 came and you know the B2 was sort of the response to that and it sort of took off in the 80s and he was extremely uh scared about about tech protection at the time. I mean, he was hypervigilant and he would actively complain about it and he even called UFOs unfunded opportunities at the time. Pretty crazy, [Laughter] right? So, that's the backdrop. And there's also in 1986, there's a budget line item in the congressional budget for $2 billion for the Aurora. And um uh this is this super stealthy craft that's post F-17. And uh that's only rumored. Like today, nobody will admit that the aurora might have been real. And the uh the aerial surveys at the time were picking up sonic booms that weren't being created by the SR71 or the space shuttle. And so there was something being flown around at that time that was, you know, causing these sonic booms that was unaccounted for. Wow. And Bob Lazar, there's even a clip of him saying, "I saw the aurora. It was like, you know, it was it was around at the time and it sort of just took off or whatever." which is, I think, a point in the direction that Lazar himself is very earnest and probably did experience some very weird stuff because why are you exposing some probably classified tech? I I think there's a lot of reasons to believe that the Aurora was real. There was a an oil rig engineer in the North Sea uh or sorry, maybe it might have been the Black Sea that sketched it out and Bill Sweetman, this um uh James Defense Weekly uh aviation journalist, you know, picked that story up there. What did he describe it as? uh this this uh kind of it was a triangle similar to the B2 but I think more more narrow and it just flew incredibly fast like like uh uh faster than you know the F-17 and and um yeah I don't know it was it was super advanced. Can you envision I mean would it be actually possible in 1988 to could you imagine that the United States would possess some sort of actual technology that's not back engineered that's not not from another world that is what Lazar described. It's funny you should ask that. Yes I do. Yes. Really? Yes. And that's not to say I don't want to again pour cold water on the like UFO crash retrieval stuff because I think there's a lot of interesting evidence there. But is there a tech tree that involves anti-gravity? Absolutely. In the US and I can trace it all the way back to this guy named Thomas Towns and Brown. So if we were to be talking in front of any academic physicist right now, they would laugh at us. They'd be like, "You're crazy." If we were to talk amongst any aerospace gray beard who is at a certain level, I think they'd give you a little wink and a smile and they'd say, "Okay, like maybe there's something there." And so, uh, the nominal history is that we have never been able we have we don't have exotic propulsion principles. Like everything is, you know, chemical combustion essentially. You had Elon Musk on and he says, you know, um, it's all Newton's three laws. You can't get anything better. And I remember you asked him, you're like, "Well, maybe if you what if you could get something better." And he's like, "It's impossible." Um, we have not unified the field in physics. So, you have the weak force, the strong force, um, and and electromagnetism. And all of those have been reconciled. Gravity is out here hanging out by itself on an island. So, you have the standard model, quantum field theory, and you have Einstein's theory of gravity. And the two are not reconcilable. It is my belief that if you were to reconcile them, you could create exotic propulsion, which I think, you know, any even, you know, reasonable theoretical physicist who's credentialed would say if you could reconcile them, that's that's possible. I think that Thomas Townsen Brown did this experimentally, not theoretically. I don't think he was a very strong theoretical physicist, but I think he did this experimentally. And so there's this whole hidden history involving anti-gravity. And I get into this in my show with how put off and Eric Weinstein where there's actually this great 1971 Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that is verified. It's real. David Grush actually cites it a lot and it talks about uh uh basically it's this guy Harry Turner who's the head of the nuclear division at in Australia. Um you know very legit guy. He's like their Oenheimer if you will. and uh and um they they were actually they had a womera test range um in in southern Australia. So there were some actually British Empire like like nuclear stuff going on. It was mostly like I think um uh missile testing but there reasons to believe that maybe he started to get interested in UFOs to begin with. And so he looked into US efforts into you know UFO research but also specifically anti-gravity. And he talks about how after a little bit of investigation, uh, uh, US efforts into anti-gravity are far deeper than meet the eye. And Blue Book, this front-facing PR campaign that's part of the Air Force is total BS. And it's meant to, you know, stigmatize UFOs and and throw people off the trail. And it's actually, you know, this now declassified document around the Robert the Robertson memo, which is around this Robertson panel that kind of created the constitution for for a blue book all shows that this was the case with blue book. He says actually there were secret anti-gravity programs going on at the time and they involved and he lists names Oenheimer, Freeman Dyson, John Wheeler and Edward Teller. He lists all these names the head head of the you knowh nuclear program in Australia. Uh, and so then you have to ask the question, okay, so you have this like official government document saying this stuff like does this line up with any artifacts at the time. Well, actually in 1956 there's an article um in Young Men's magazine, this kind of aviation hobbyist journal uh uh journal by a guy named Michael Gladic, and he is quoting all of the industry experts. You know, he's Bill Leer is quoted who we talked about. Um, uh, uh, uh, who else is quoted? George Trimble, who's a VP at Martin Corporation, their RAAS, their anti-gravity research program. He says, uh uh anti-gravity research is, you know, we're gonna we're uh we're going to figure this out in in just amount in just the same amount of time that it took to figure out the atom bomb. Like it's it's right around the bend sort of thing. You had uh um the patron of of uh Bell aircraft. They had just broken the sound barrier with the with the X1 1947. So there you go. Michael Glad the G engines are coming. Yeah. Whoa. Whoa. By far the most potent source of energy is gravity. Using it as power. Future aircraft will attain the speed of light. Holy [ __ ] And and uh Belle says like, you know, we're experimenting with nuclear fuels to cancel out gravity. Richard Arnowit and Stanley Desert. Look at they have a diagram of how it would work. It's wild. Protective boundary layer. Yep. Cabin. electronic rockets, gravity generator. They talk about uh gravity particles. Stanley Deser and Richard Arnowit at Princeton are studying this. So what do you think was going on? I think they were deeply investigating anti-gra I mean there there you think they had a working model? I think they had an effect called the Biffield Brown effect that showed that you could couple electromagnetism and gravity at a base level and you could do it in a vacuum which rules out ionized air as the possible reason for thrust. So I I'll back up and I'll just give you what the experiment is. So it's you take a capacitor, right? And so a capacitor is a positive electrode and a negative electrode. It's an asymmetric capacitor. The negative electrode is bigger than the positive capacitor and the two are uh uh in between the two is an insulator called the high K dialectric. So it's a material that stores a lot of uh electromagnetic charge. You pump the entire thing with high voltage and low current electricity and Brown used to do it with uh DC direct current pulses. and you see thrust going from uh the negative to the positive. And if you do that in air, then you can always say that it's ionized air because ions are being produced and then you get this equal and opposite reaction with the wind and then you get this thrust, right? So that's not breaking physics. If you do this in a um depressurized vacuum chamber uh where there basically is no air to to to to you know create this kind of equal and opposite force for the thrust then you are breaking physics as we know it. There are other things that break physics as we know it. you had Sunny White on. He talked about like the the Casemir effect, you know, which is a a real effect that involves uh uh uh not charged but conductive plates that are very close to each other that seem to attract. Um there's the bone the airoff bomb effect which might be explained by the electromagnetic for potential. There are other effects in physics where you don't you can't quite explain it in the current model but they are harbingers if you will of the next paradigm. I believe that when you find an anomaly, it is pointing towards the next scientific paradigm. Black body radiation is a great example was discovered in the 1870s by a guy named Gustaf Kirchov. We could not explain it until the quantum revolution with Max Plank where he, you know, actually discovered quanta. Um, uh, the orbit of Mercury is another good example where we didn't understand, you know, we couldn't calculate, uh, uh, Mercury's orbit until we had spacetime curvature in Einstein. So Newton didn't quite explain it. So my belief is the Bfield Brown effect is an anomaly that seemed to ostensibly visually unify the field or it's pointing towards something else gravitational shielding or it's pointing towards how putoff stuff around you know quantum vacuum fluctuations. I don't know. I don't have a great uh uh the theory for how it works. I don't think Brown had an amazing theory for how it works. But it's an effect that I think creates this tech tree of exotic electromagnetic propulsion that leads us to today. It's an effect that's not supposed to happen. And this what is this Jamie? Is that it? The Bible thruster in a vacuum. Yeah, that that's a that's a lateral propeller version of it. And you don't have to listen to me, by the way. The lead electrostatics guy at NASA is a guy named Charles Beller. He's been doing this for 20 years and he's had access he's at at um Kennedy Space Center. He is the lead they use electrostatics to like clean dust off the you know lunar lander or whatever because those particles are actually charged and um super he's the most senior guy in electrostatics and he says this is not a conventional electrostatic force and he attributes his work to Towns and Brown. I could show you in an interview he he literally says Towns and Brown was like the first guy to discover this. He he he's updated it a bit. He says that um it's not just sheer voltage. You don't need to use mega voltage and actually electric field strength is the most important thing. So we use kilovolts and he amps up the electric field strength in order to get more thrust. But he has a whole company around this. It's called Exodus Space. So like you don't have to listen another very you know credentialed person if we're if we're on that uh a guy named Carl Nell who I have reason to believe that some of Brown's work made it into the B2 stealth bomber. I don't think it's the anti-gravity part. It's a part called electro-hydrodnamics that made it into the B2 stealth bomber. But the point is I interviewed a guy who was the deputy CTO of Northrup Grumman. And he also was the army representative of the UAP task force along with David Gush where they were investigating UFOs. And he says I I was in a room, you know, filled with venture capitalists and entrepreneurs. I was like, Carl, these people want actionable stuff. like can you actually make progress with any of this UFO stuff or is it all like kind of metaphysical, you know, and like kind of um uh not even wrong as Fineman would say? And he goes, "Well, if you want, you know, some actionable stuff, go watch Jesse's video on Thomas Towns and Brown." And so, like, I've gotten this time and time again where I've had all these private experiences about, you know, with Brown where I'm like, is anybody seeing this? Like, this is crazy. And it's, you know, I don't know. It's weird. So, let's take this back to when was Brown conducting these experiments experiments initially. Yeah. What year was this? The early 20s. So, like 1923 24 range. Whoa. He was a child prodigy. So, they're newspaper climate. He was from Zanesville, Ohio. He was born in 1905. In 1915, uh he was, you know, caught in the garden or whatever using charged rods to get worms to ascend to the top of the soil. Then at age 12, he the World War government under Woodro Wilson, it was probably the local government, told him to take down a wireless transmitter that he had created, an antenna that he had created, like this walkietalkie system that he had developed at the time. And there there's newspaper clippings talking about this at the time that like totally corroborate this. He then goes to Caltech. He studies under a guy named Robert Milikin who's actually a really wellrespected physicist who um was helped developed Einstein's photoelectric effect or actually you know demonstrated experimentally. Milikin doesn't really give him the time of day on on the biffield brown effect and the way he discovered the effect is actually he was using uh coolage X-ray tubes. So these were really early X-ray tubes and they have every X-ray tube has or every Coolage tube has um a cathode and an anode. So a negative and a positive electrode. And he would pump it full of um you know high voltage electricity and the wire would jump and then he would he would actually he would put in a fixed chassis and it would keep jumping and then he would suspend it from you know the ceiling and it would keep jumping and he was like what's going on? Like this isn't supposed to happen. And there are ways to again explain that away via traditional electrostatics. So he later got the idea to do this in a vacuum chamber and really prove it. But after Caltech he then goes to Dennis University where he studies under a guy named Paul Alfred Biffield. And Dennis University for the longest time has denied that relationship and now they're admitting it which is I find really funny. Then the archivist there is now admitting it. there is an affidavit uh from the Navy saying where Paul Alfred Bifeld signs a letter saying I witnessed this effect. It's an anomalous effect. From there he goes on and it's witnessed by a guy named Victor Bertrandius who's at the right Patterson right airfield at the time flight test division. He's working with Colonel Albert Boyd um on all the you know crazy flight tests in 1952. He says, "Believe it or not, I saw a model of a flying saucer and I was frightened and I'm frightened for it getting out because," and I'm paraphrasing a little bit because I believe it's in the stage of early atomic development and that's 1952. Um, he then shows a fan precipitator experiment which really shows the electro hydrodnamic effect which is similar but not the same as the the electromagnetism gravity thing to Edward Teller, the father of the Hbomb. And Edward Teller himself says, "I don't know how this works." And then his wife turns to Towns and Brown's daughter, and I have this, by the way, on a phone call where with Towns and Brown's daughter who's saying this all happened. Uh turns to to um to her and she says, "I've never heard him say that because he's such a genius. I mean, he was Hungarian, brilliant, you know, father of the Hbomb." And um so you have all these interesting eyewitnesses. Ed um uh Brown was an associate of Bill Leer. You have video of Bill Leer and Towns and Brown together in a lab in the Baineson lab in North Carolina together. In fact, there's a Chapel Hill conference in 1957 which is basically creates quantum gravity of which the offshoot is string theory and actually Eric Weinstein talked about it on your show. It's at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, Chapel Hill. They are funding Brown's work in the back room and there is video of Brown working on his experiments working under Agnu Bainson. And in that 1971 Australian intelligence memo, you have all these outposts of anti-gravity research. University of North Carolina is one of those outposts. It's crazy. And says the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence is coordinating all this stuff. the president of University of North Carolina in the 50s around this time is a guy named Gordon Gray who's a super spooky guy who uh he he he he um revoked Oppenheimer's Q clearance and uh he's also implicated in these sort of MJ12 documents which I don't necessarily want to mush in with Brown. It has to be viewed through that sort of passage material like limited hangout lens but Gordon Gray is this very interesting character. The point is that the people who were sending physics down the wrong path with the Chapel Hill conference and this is a conference in 1957 that convened the top theoretical physicists in the world. Freeman Dyson, Peter Bergman, uh Fineman was there, John Wheeler was there, Bryce Dit, all these people at the same time they were funding in the back room this kind of zany inventor Towns and Brown who is performing these experiments in vacuum chambers. And there's video of him popping champagne where it's like why are you popping champagne? Probably because you got a successful experiment. That was the second time he had he had um tested this in a vacuum. So again it's it's reduc it's eliminating this sort of ionized wind effect before that a year before that um in Paris at the Montgier facilities he performed this in a vacuum and this guy named Jacqu Cornion was this he died in 2009 but Towns and Brown's biographer has him on record in a in a phone call that is recorded saying the tests were very tricky but in the end we got it to work and he's on his deathbed and he's saying all this and you have an 120 page 125page report for the Montgalier project. And when Brown comes back to the to America, he's picked up, according to his daughter, Linda, by a guy named Robert Sarbacher, who runs rampant. I mean, there's so many Sarbacher stories when it comes to UFOs. He says that UFOs are classified at two points higher than the Hbomb. He's talking to this guy Wilbert Smith, who's this um magnetics expert in in in Canada about their experimentations via, you know, with UFOs. And so he's the guy that picks up and he's head of Washington National Labs and running research and development for Vanavar Bush at the time. And he's the guy who picks up Brown where it's like, okay, we we've got to take take this seriously because you got it to work in a vacuum. The idea that they've kept all this secret for all these years seems impossible to me. Yeah, sure. I mean, I I'm sure it's not, but you know what I mean? from my limited understanding of how things work and secretive government projects that they could have a gravity propulsion system in place for decades. Yeah, it seems crazy to me, but he had something Brown had something called his wounded prairie chicken routine, which is basically showing people something called it was basically the electrohydrodnamic effect, which is not the electrogravitic effect. So these are two very different things. One is coupling again electromagnetism and gravity somehow or creating some gravity shielding or whatever. You can do this in a vacuum. And then the other thing is what you could see on YouTube videos which is associated with towns and brown where you have um basically these balsa wood structures. You have tin foil at the bottom and you have a copper wire at the top. The copper wire is the positive electrode. The tin foil is the negative electrode. The copper wire is producing ions which is creating thrust because those neutral ions are bombarding the wind which is creating thrust in in a certain direction. So that is an experiment that is 95% similar to the electrogravidic thing. It it wears the mantle of being electrogravitic but it's actually using this other principle that you can just describe using normal physics and you know Newton's laws. Well, what about material science? Like what about the actual structure itself? You know, because th this is where it gets really weird, right? The these nano layers of whatever the material is that's being used. What what was the was it bismouth? Bismouth. So, this this is what's crazy. So, magnesium bismouth shows up a lot. It shows up in Thomas Towns and Brown's Winterhaven proposal in 1954 where he's describing these electrogravitic effects because it's a high K dialectric. It stores a lot of electromagnetic charge, but it also shows up. There's actually an interview with Lewis Whitten, who's the father of Ed Whitten, who's this master string theorist that Eric Wein says is the Michael Jordan of physics, you know, on your show. Yeah. And um he Lewis Whitten says there was a guy named Townzen who discovered an isotope of of of bismouth that would repel instead of attracting. Who's named Townsen at that time? It's clear he's talking about Towns and Brown. If you actually look at Gary Nolan's samples that he stud Gary Nolan is, you know, a PhD at Stanford's a tenure professor and um uh he he is, you know, spun out multiple nine figure companies in biotechnology. Really smart guy. He runs the Soul Foundation. and they're studying sort of, you know, non-human intelligence. He has these samples, various samples of different crash materials that he's gotten from Jacques Valle, who've you've had on as the French godfather of ufology, who, you know, his address is posted online. If you see a crash, you send it to Jacques. Jacques, you know, uh, sends a lot of his materials to Gary. One of the materials is magnesium bismouth. And this was apparently, I believe this was the material that they found around the Roswell crash, I think. And magnesium bismouth is a high K dialectric and it's it's over and over again it's mentioned by Thomas Towns and Brown. So you have this this weird thing around the material that creates more thrust via these anti-gravity experiments is also showing up in UFO lore. Do do you explore the possibility the Roswell crash was not of from another world? That's where it gets weird, man, because that was early. That was July of 1947, right? Like so the bismouth thing like when you're talking about the way this stuff is layered that's where it gets really weird right that's where it's we it's it's layered thinner than a you know it's like micron layered like thinner than human hair is I think the how put off quote on this and I don't know the provenence on that and I don't know you know per games being played in this space I don't know if that actually came from the Roswell crash it was like if it didn't come from the Roswell crash it like let's imagine Is it possible to make that stuff today and with those layers? Uh how put off would say no and it's probably beyond my material science knowledge but yeah I don't know people who are very smart on this subject like Hal and Gary who I speak to you know at a decent frequency say no. Okay. So if they say no maybe they're wrong. Maybe there is a lab somewhere that can recreate it. But could they recreate it at scale? Like could they 3D print that to something that you could actually get people inside and fly around? And then could that have been done in 1947? That's where it gets super [ __ ] weird. It gets super weird because you you you know there's some leaps, right? Okay, we had the the Hbomb, you know, we had we had atomic energy. We we had a lot of stuff back then. They split the atom. There was some really incredible advances. I don't believe we had anti-gravity that I like if I track Brown's stuff at the time, which I think, you know, he was kind of the tip of the spear on this stuff. He was using these capacitor models and trying to get that experimentally proven and and sometimes being thwarted via like, you know, mainstream academic circles at that time. Like the the the Chapel Hill conference was much later and that's where he's like kind of officially proving this stuff in the US government context in 1957. So I do not believe that the Roswell crash is easily explained by an anti- early antigra. Kelly Goddard who is a father of American rocketry was doing rocket testing at around Roswell at the time like and so that's like total chemical combustion. You had V2s at the time where you know that was top of the line. Opens up the door to the possibility of back engineering. Absolutely. Which is where it gets really weird. So now it's we're not dealing with hidden science. We're not dealing with top secret compartmentalized like, you know, need to know. Everything's pushed away into skunk works and wherever the [ __ ] it's done. You're talking about something that's not from here. Well, it's interesting you say back engineering. In 1949, there is a contract that anybody can look up. I put it on the doc, Jamie, between Wright Patterson. It was right airfield at the time and Battel Memorial Institute. And you have eyes light up and you got shout out Columbus, Ohio. All roads lead to Ohio, right? Yeah. And you have all these um titanium alloys. And one of them is called nitanol, which is a nickel titanium alloy. So this is 49. This is 1949. And so if you have, you know, um, Army intelligence officer, uh, you know, uh, Jesse Marcel says that he picks up the the crash material and he says that it was like this memor shape metal, memory metal thing that you would kind of, you know, mess with it and it would go back into its original form, right? It was like this kind of like tinfoily like thing. And so Nitnanol was found at a Navy lab in the 60s. That was when it was actually fully published. But you have this contract between right p right airfield and battel memorial institute where you have nitanol in as one of the metal metals that they're testing. Not only that 49 in 2012 they foy they used the freedom of information act to figure out that a guy named Elroy J center ej center was one of the co-authors of that paper. Elroy John center died I think in 1991. Before that, he had told two MUN UFO researchers, Nick Nickerson and Irene Scott, and they presented this at MUON in Ohio in 1992. They said this guy was this metallurgist. He worked at Patel. Again, he's been foyed as part of this paper. And he says, "I uh uh uh worked on alien material and that there were weird hieroglyphics on it and that I had to I had to like, you know, I was I was I was a c he was a chemist and so he had to look at like um metal impurities, but he was also uh uh meant to decipher the the you know, hieroglyphics on it or whatever." And so I don't know, was Nitnol maybe just inspired by the stuff that Marcel recovered because obviously the rumors are that the Roswell crash wreckage ended up at right airfield. Um or was it, you know, this one thing and EJ Center is at the center of it, no pun intended, where he's foyed in 2012 and he says he has these UF he's he's looking at UFO material and he's on record working at Patel. You can look that up. Well, not only is there record that the Roswell crash was brought to right, but that it was brought in two separate jets in case it crashed and that Truman met them there. Yep. I don't I don't know if that's true. I need to know that. I want to see a photo of the [ __ ] hieroglyphs. Could you imagine the glimpse at alien writing? Do you think that would be amazing? Do you think you have a better chance now than ever at being cuz you interviewed Trump? Would Trump let you be the disclosure guy? And I could be the water boy on the side making sure that the dude if that's possible. I don't think they tell Trump [ __ ] I think they they would withhold that from him. Why would you tell that guy? Yeah. I mean, that guy's a substitute teacher as far as the government's concerned. I mean, he's doing a lot of wild stuff in terms of like, you know, withholding funding for Harvard and all these different things and the border stuff and the ICE stuff. There's a lot of stuff that I think are is allowed to go on, but I think if you get to the highest levels of technological sophistication, black budget stuff that has been kept under wraps for [ __ ] decades, you think they're going to tell the guy who is the host of The Apprentice? I don't think they tell him cuz they think he's only in there for four years. Probably not with two caveats. One is his son Don Jr. interviewed him and said, "What do you think happened at Roswell?" And he said, "Well, I think there's something very interesting that might have happened." Yeah. That's all he ever says. And he say on your show, too. He doesn't spill the beans at all. But I mean, maybe he doesn't spill the beans because he doesn't know where the beans are, right? Maybe he's looking for more of a smoking gun. Like, he needs to know more. Well, is that really his primary concern? He's a 78-year-old man who doesn't do drugs. Like is, you know, he's had no psychedelic experiences. Maybe he's not even interested in this concept. I think about that sometimes with people on the hill that I speak to where I'm like, can you just like I'm giving you all this info. Can you think outside the box? Figure it out. And they they don't compute it. There's some there's a person who like you're the archetype of this who's like so fascinated by it and then there is a person who goes but I got to pay taxes dude. Yeah. They have to get reelected. They're super busy. Yeah. You you'd have to find someone whose primary concern is that and that bug has to bite you. You have to get infected with UFO Lyme disease. If you if you don't, you're not going to want to release all this stuff. And I don't think Trump is infected. I mean, I think his even the way he describes these things is very different than the way he describes other things. Like he famously was talking to Steve Hilton and um it was one of the few times in history that a a sitting president has mentioned the military-industrial complex wanting to go to war. These guys want to go to war. And he was saying that in that interview and I remember thinking like, "Wow, that is wild to hear him say to a guy on Fox News that there's factions in this incredibly dense complex of corporations and defense contractors and there's insane amounts of money involved and these guys want to go to war." And he was saying that in that interview and I'm like, "This is I mean, this is what Eisenhower said when he was leaving office." Straight up. Yeah, straight up. There's a there's a straight line between then and now. And it feels like it's hitting this apex where we're involved in it. It's like you had the Civil War, you know, 1861. Now we have like a deep state war going on where it's like Tulsi's going in there as an outsider and this like light warrior and she's being like redteamed and attacked and she doesn't know who's on her side. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. It's It's pretty wild. It's pretty wild how nothing gets done and you know and it's set up so nothing gets done. But my point is that Trump his response to that is an informed response. Like there's there's this military-industrial complex. These people want to go to war. He doesn't talk about this UAP thing that way. Like I've seen some things crazy things. What is that? What are you saying? Like what? Be specific. You got handsome pilots. They you know crew cuts like you. They look like good guys, nice guys. good Americans. Like what what what do you know? Didn't he say something on your podcast about men from Mars or something? He goes the the people from Mars or something. I don't He It's hard with him because he speaks in this sing songongy oversimplified way and he rants and he rants and he Well, he's got a strong rant muscle, right? Because he does these stadium tours where he goes to these enormous places and he basically just works without a script. So, it's like he's got a rant muscle. There's a few people like Tim Dylan is the best comedian who has a rant muscle. So good. He just can rant. He just like get a microphone in front of him in a subject and he knows what to say. That Trump has that muscle. He's developed that muscle over all these years of campaigning. And so it's really hard to interview him because he just essentially turns on that rampant muscle when the mic's on and you got to like interject like hold on. Okay, but what are you saying? Like what do you know? Like what do you know? Like will you release this information? Like what what if you found out that for sure we have been visited and that we are in possession of crashed UFOs that were not made by China, they were not made by Russia, they're not made by America, they're from another civilization that we don't understand. Would you tell us? What What do you think he would say? There's a lot of information. I don't know if I could release it. I don't know if they'd let me. you know, like I don't know what holds it back. I want to know if he's in an like Did you see Ages of Disclosure? I didn't actually. You should. It's really good. I I mean, I don't know how you would see it right now because it's not released yet and I don't know what they're doing as far as getting it released, but did you come out believing more and more skeptical? What was your both with like with all of it? I think some some is [ __ ] some of it is misinformation, some of it is they're releasing this slow trickle. Like if it all is real, I think the strategy is to slowly get us accustomed to the concept. Just the idea that we're not alone and just get it in there. Okay, first step, first shot across the bow, 2017, New York Times. New York Times says not of this world. Oh my god. You know, you see the the pictures of the gimbal and the go fast and you're like, "Okay, all right. Now we're talking." But that's eight [ __ ] years ago, right? Nothing real significant in eight years. And so then you have sightings, you have these, you know, different pilots. Commander Fraver, he comes out, does podcasts, you have Ryan Graves, he comes down, does podcasts, you know, you have Lou Alzando, everybody's talking, no one's showing you [ __ ] Yeah. Fowler, who you had on your show, Fowler. What did you think of him? I thought that I He's They've got to show data. They have on their website like a container for the data. They haven't populated it yet. I want to see the data and I want to see a scientist who they don't have to be a debunker or a skeptic, but they have to kind of go in being like, I don't know what UFOs are. Like, I don't know anything about this stuff. And like vetting it. Mhm. Now, being as deep as I am in UFO research where like I know there's a nuclear connection, there's a great book by a guy named Robert Hastings called UFOs and nukes and it's like 600 pages and it is 167 Qcle cleared ICBM security personnel, radar operators, employees at nuclear bases where they're saying they see tic tacs, orbs, saucers, all sorts of stuff flying around our nuclear sites often disarming the nukes. And so it's always tough to answer that question where you're like, "What do you think of Skywatcher?" I'm like, "If I don't have that ontology where like UFOs are showing up around nukes constantly, which I I'm deep in this and they they do they show up all around the world. There's a a town in Japan called Eno, which is next to the Fukushima Prefecture. Fukushima is famous for its civilian nuclear grid, which was built in the 1970s that have a it has a museum dedicated to UFOs in the '90s that they built. Everybody there is obsessed with UFOs. Vice did a documentary in 2020 2022 because they are obsessed with U with UFOs. They're geomagnetic anomalies they found all over this mountain. Uh Senori there and there are UFO researchers there and like everybody in that town believes in UFOs. Bareroce, Argentina, 1995. Uh uh you have a commercial they they're famous for again civilian nuclear grid uh uh commercial pilot at Aerolinus Argentinis or whatever. Famous UFO sighting it it shuts down the power at the airport and the thing has to the the the plane can't land and then it goes around in a circle and there are people on the on the flight who have been interviewed. It's on a you know YouTube video. It's pretty simple and easy to digest. Even Roswell 1947 the largest stockpile of American nuclear weapons to date at that time 1947. So there are all these declassified documents. In 1949 there was an emergency meeting declassified air force document document that is verified between air force office of special investigations army counter intelligence army CIC FBI office of naval intelligence. All these guys are emergency meeting because they're freaked out at how much UFOs are showing up around nuclear sites. across the US. In 1952, there's a Look magazine article where Captain Edward J. Rupelt, who's kind of marginalized pre Blue Book really taking off with Jaylen Heinik, who I think was basically a disinfo agent, where he I do. Yeah. And he's claimed to have like gotten better and kind of be, you know, like like I he admitted his part in the cover up, but then I think he kept going on with some some [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. So there's so so if you don't have that ontology, there's even there's um Vasilei Alexev is a a Russian general and in a German magazine from 2000 he's interviewed and he talks about how UFOs show up at the forefront of human ingenuity and advancement. And when we transport certain material, the UFOs show up. In chapter nine of the invisible college by Jacqu Valet, he talks about the UFOs being this sort of autonomous control system and when we you know it's like a node lights up like when we engage in super advanced research or something. He talks about ways to interfere with the control system but that are very dangerous. So if you don't have that ontology like yeah me saying like these dudes are out with their mobile construction unit like in the desert like you know getting stuff to show up you're going to be like that's a [ __ ] myar balloon. I'm sorry but because you if you have that if you accept that data set and don't just dismiss it kind of firsthand. I do think they can get stuff to show up. What they're getting to show up I don't know. Can they get it to land? I don't know. There, you know, I think so. Can you explain how they're getting the stuff to show up? What signals are they putting out there that represent something to these supposedly something to these UAPs? Unfortunately, they kind of blackbox it. And so I have to assume it's either nuclear. They do say that they have a dog whistle, which is a certain frequency. There is a frequency floating around online that somebody claims to have docked. That might be their thing, but I don't want to say that that's definitely their thing. So there are but the idea is they call them they use something to send a signal out there and then these crafts respond. Is it a 100% of the time? They say that the dog whistle works 100% of the time and they have a combination of mechanical means of attracting UFOs and of this is really weird but humans trying to call in the UFOs. I've heard that before. Right. Yeah. C5 is sort of post that on our show I don't think but is that what you're talking about? I don't want to make it. That might be. Yeah. 2.5K. Yeah. What do you not want to make? I don't know. Do you want me to show this or not? I don't know if he's saying it's bad. I don't want to give it. No, I'm not saying it's bad. I don't think Seems like it's on fine. I don't think I don't think it on their own. I don't think Skywatcher would like say that that's definitely uh you know endorse that as their thing, but because they kind of blackbox it. But that could be that could be real. So, what it's saying um want to know how to make the dog whistle for summoning UAP? Here's how. Super easy. What's his signal? Um 7.83 hertz carrier via modulated 100 hertz bass tone human resonance. Do you understand any of this? Me? Yeah. Do you know what they're saying? Well, I guess human resonance is the kind of, you know, electromagnetic frequency of the earth itself. And so I I don't know what that means. Modulated via What is this 528 hertz harmonic spiritual frequency? What is that? That's the lowest tone. I don't know. Is that what it is, Jamie? I I just know the numbers. So like uh when you get up to 17k that's like that's a high that's a real high pitch like oh and the high numbers like that are low. Yeah. And then low is oh so it's just a that's th00and and then not thousand. So 20 hertz is as low as you can hear. That's like a low bass sound. So I guess there's being generated out of some sort of machine which doesn't say here on what you need to generate it but I don't know if you just played on a piano or anything you know. Interesting. And then organic 2.5 hertz chirps every 10 second like creature calls giving you it a unique signature. Huh. I don't know where he would get this. There used to be a There's so many cooks out there. There are a lot. Boy, there's so many cooks. There's so many cooks. Cooks and grifters. It's infiltrated. It's every So my my contrarian take about UFOs is there are so many cooks and grifters, but there are more people with ulterior motives who are telling partial truths than full cooks and grifters. And that makes it so complicated because you're like you're bad vibes and you like are doing some controlled opposition thing, but like I have to listen to you because you have some interesting info. Right. That's the problem. That's when you're talking I've had conversations with people like that where I'm talking to them I'm like I think you're at least partially full of [ __ ] but like keep going. Yeah. Tell me more. Yeah. Totally. You're like I know there's some stuff and then I know there's some [ __ ] you're giving me and you want to see if I'll tell somebody else that [ __ ] and then you'll track it and like Right. Right. It's this weird game. Well, the in the age of disclosure, one of the things they go into is that if these programs have been running and if they have been batch back engineering crafts that are not of this world, there's a problem with lying to Congress because misappropriation of funds. So, anybody who did that is going to jail. So, what they're calling for is mass amnesty. They're calling to say, "Hey, you know, we've got to give amnesty to these people that were involved in this program, otherwise we're never going to learn anything." And then there's the problem with corporations. So, if you give this to Loheed Martin, you know, what does General Electric think about that? Well, hey, you [ __ ] how come you didn't clue us? So, then they want to sue. So, then they sue the federal government for, you know, whatever, interfering with competition. I Yes. So, there are all those issues. And right now the UAP Disclosure Act is up again. It was killed by a guy named Mike Turner who has a bunch of aerospace. The [ __ ] Mike. Mike, come on. Mike Turner. Come on, Mike. He's out now. He And guess what? He represented Dayton, Ohio, where Wright Patterson Air Force Base is Jamie. Sorry, Jamie. Jamie gets so excited when you bring up Battel and all the Ohio [ __ ] We've gone deep. I mean, Battel is very implicated in all this stuff. Yeah. from the ' 40s. from the ' 40s. The all domain anomalies uh uh resolution office, which is like the authoritative office that is I think the modern blue book that's you know basically saying don't look here like this is all [ __ ] or whatever. It's run by a guy named Sean Kirkpatrick. He has all these like atomic connections. He like worked at Oakidge for God's sakes. hit the guy that formed uh Arrow upon whose recommendation Arrow was formed is a guy named Ed Moltry who is under secretary of defense for intelligence and he was on Battel's board and he scrubbed that from his LinkedIn and my good friend UAP Gerb who is an amazing channel he's super deep UFO researcher showed that this was it was on his resume and then he recommends this that arrow forms it's like it's a total conflict of interest. It's insane. It's insane. Yeah. There's so many bottlenecks to disclosure like legal bottlenecks. Yes. Like Yeah. Especially the misappropriation of funds. I mean I mean how much money was involved when you're you must be talking about billions and billions and billions of dollars if all these programs are real. So if they've been lying to Congress, it's on the order. It has to be on and it's funny. A lot of modern disclosure talks about OAP and ATIP, these programs from 2007 to 2012 kind of under the opice of Harry Reid, right? And that budget was $22 million. A single F-35 cost four times that. The B2 costs like $2 billion. Like give me a break. The nature of reality you're going to spend $22 million on. So, it's funny how the the whole conversation is on this like clearly this thing to like get more civilian eyes on the issue, maybe see what they can figure out or whatever. The core program, if there is a core program, which obviously I believe there's a core program, it's on the order of that speech that you've often cited that Donald Rumsfeld made on September 10th, 2001, where he said $2 trillion was missing from the Pentagon's budget. It's [ __ ] like that. or this woman named Katherine Austin Fitz who was just on Tucker Carlson who is um at Housing and Urban Development under uh George Bush 41 where she's talking about underground tunnel systems and billions of dollars missing in the budget. It is not this little 1020 million. She's talking about a $21 trillion breakaway civilization that's been developed. Yeah. It's what? Yeah. And she says it at a moment. First of all, she's citing Richard Dolan who Richard Dolan is like hardcore UFO researcher. half that interview and Tucker Carlson doesn't know who Richard Dolan is. So it's this funny thing and then she go and then he's like where are the funds being used and she goes space and it's like the where it's not being used at SpaceX is supposed to be the tip of the spear right SpaceX Blue Origin. So like what do you mean space? Like SpaceX is basically like those [ __ ] go-karts that people send down hills with no engines, right? You know what I mean? Like what are those things called? You know those things when they have races where people they they make their own little down the hill derby. Oh, no. Not the Yeah. Yeah. Soap boxes. A little soap boxes. Yeah. That's what it's like. Yeah. That's what SpaceX is. Exactly. If we have any of this [ __ ] that's what SpaceX is. It's using really ancient technology to achieve these results. It's business. It's And I think Elon's amazing. He's single-handedly resuscitated NASA. But it is a it is an earthbased space company. I think he keeps stuff secret. He does. He absolutely keeps stuff secret. When he tells me there's no evidence of aliens, like there's something about it that just stinks. When he's saying it, I'm like, "Okay." So, okay. I looking at him. Uh, yeah. Nothing. Yeah. You don't think nothing? I'll pop something. I just want to see if Jesse's heard of this before. I found stumbled down this one. You guys were talking about uh some stealth project. This is an article from Wired in 1994. I looked up the guy who wrote it. He's written a bunch of articles about the black budget back then and it's talking about a guy named Steve Douglas who through monitoring like uh the um sorry communications. He heard different pilots talking about what probably is the TR3 Black Manta and then he says he's got a picture of it. I couldn't find it anywhere online. And it's nothing even close comes up to it. But this says he had a video of it, a picture. I'm assuming some people have seen it cuz it talks about it. Then it goes into talking more and more about how he how he did this. He says he's got files of them talking about all sorts of different planes at night that you were mentioning the Mach 6 Aura when I was like when you said that is when I found this on here. That's even I I haven't seen it. There's obviously tons of rumors about the TR3A and the TR3B. The Belgian wave occurred around this time. I think it was like late 80s, early 90s. I think a lot of the triangle craft that people see are human because it's just it's a direct Phoenix Light stuff like cuz a lot of people saw it during the Phoenix Lights. They saw the triangle craft. Kurt Russell was actually flying his plane saw the Phoenix Light. This is the one I brought up the other day that they said they think was in Desert Storm and they just don't really have any proof online today. So the TR3B is the this looks like the triangle thing that everybody's seen. Yeah, look what is the [ __ ] center of it. What is that all about? Well, this is just probably someone made, you know, a photo trying to describe it, but the bottom of it is what everybody says, you know, so the the TR3 series that was built by Northrep, I believe. Is that right? Like Aurora was locked and that was if you confirm that look like they No one knows this is like no one has any proof of these even existing. All the talk online is back into the '9s of just like, do these exist? We probably have them. No one knows for sure. So, here's a weird Okay, so I think it's this is North I think TR3 the TR3 series is Northrep. So, the connection between Northrup and Towns and Brown is in the mid60s Towns and Brown is being funded by a guy named Floyd Odlam. Floyd Odlam is the the majority owner of Northrup pre- merger with Grumman. And so Towns and Brown is doing these experiments at Guidance Technologies. His outfit in Santa Monica. This was all this investment was inspired by Edward Teller seeing his experiment and freaking out. He's doing these experiments. Bill Leers is actually has an office across the street. They're doing all sorts of cool innovative stuff. He does a series of presentations. Curtis Lame for the Rand Corporation for all sorts of kind of, you know, head honchos when it comes to American military. In 1967 uh uh guidance technology shuts down with no explanation. They say you know our results all failed. But after a bunch of the a series of these highle meetings that was at the end of 1967 3 months later at the beginning of 1968 Northrup publishes a paper called electro aerodynamics and supersonic flow or in supersonic flow and it is basically paying homage to electrohydrodnamics and towns and browns work. It is exactly part and parcel towns and browns work. Uh they then do a press release at the time. They retract the press release because they are embarrassed. Then later Bill Scott at Aviation Week in I think 1992 says the the B2 surfs its own wave using the Biffield Brown effect. There's a guy who's known as the Doyen of uh uh British aviation journalism. His name is Bill Gunston and he um in in uh Air International magazine is doing a survey level overview of all aero engine tech since World War II. And he says uh I am I'm familiar with the rud rudiments of Thomas Towns and Brown's work, but I don't want to end up in the Tower of London. So, I will refrain from talking about millions of volts charged positive to millions of volts charged negative on the trailing edge of the wing of the B2 stealth bomber. Yes. And what is the Tower of London? What's that reference to? He's just saying I don't want to end up in jail. Tower of London is probably where Jack the Ripper ended up or I don't think it was like in, you know, but he's like, "Don't get out of my ass. Surfs its own wave." Surfs its own wave. So if you put that electro aerodynamics and supersonic flow paper which is available you could put that into chat GBT and how it could be like how can this confer an advantage to an airframe for you know yeah you can do that and do that I'll tell you what it's do yeah it's wild it's wild it'll give you a bunch of answers own so that's the paper yeah how do I download it then electroeramics so my point if the T if the TR3A and B are real. Like the B2, the B2 is still so locked down. We sell F-35s to allied nations, Norway, Canada, you know, whatever. We don't sell B2s to anybody, even including Allied nations. The the the the ticket price is 2 billion. They have a new version of the B2 that's, you know, I think like 700 million or whatever. They weren't built at scale. They're extremely locked down. It's pretty crazy. Wow. So what would they be doing? Like how would it be surfing its own wave? Like what what advantage would that confer? If you do this chat GPT thing, it'll say it doesn't split the airflow as much and so you get more lift and there's reduced drag. The the shock wave is reduced. The electric fields somehow interact with the particles at the boundary layer where the the frame hits the air. And so there are a bunch of theoretical things that are honestly probably a little above my pay grade, but that even, you know, conventional AI will tell you that it will do as far as being helped. Guntohead, how far do you think they've gotten this stuff, man? I mean, this stuff was being this was like 80s and they were probably maybe building in the early 80s or maybe late 70s. So definitely way farther than that, you So, do you do you entertain the possibility that this thing that Lazar talked about that we see on the desk right there, the sport model, do you think that that was ours? That feels really hard for me to to to say in good faith because that was around the time that the BT was just being unveiled. Also, no seams like it's 3D printed. Totally. Element 113 or 115 rather and this generator that nobody understands. Yeah, I I'm de I think that is more of the variety of something that would crash in the New Mexico desert. That is, and this is where it gets weird because everybody wants a clean solution. Everybody wants the the anti-gravity, the UFOs to be a cover for the anti-gravity, including Lazar. Like he said when he saw the sticker on it, there was American flag sticker on the sport model. He's like, "Oh, I get it. This these are ours." Yep. That's why people keep seeing them. And then as he starts examining these things, he's like, "No." Yep. This is not ours. Like, "What the [ __ ] is this? This is meant for 3ft tall things. There's no controls in this." Like, what is this? If reality has a governor on it, and we're we're in weird territory. We're just talking about AI and all this stuff is just getting so weird. Quantum computing. If reality has a governor on it, like a like a governor on a motor, you take the governor off. Do you get is it like a hydra where you cut the head off and you get five in its place or do you get one neat solution? You don't get one neat solution. Of course not. It's a zoo of things. And so at the time that like the government's kind of unraveling and all these we have all these transparency initiatives or whatever and you get these secret science lineages and then our our apertures are people are waking up to greater realities. the fact that the pandemic could even happen like is sort of so crazy and then it makes you question like what what about the Gulf of Tonk and USS Maine and all these things. I think all of this stuff is coming out at the same time and it's not necessarily this neat solution where the anti-gravity just you know accounts for the UFOs and the aliens and the UFOs and nukes stuff which was happening since the 40s where it's like I don't I don't know how I I can't explain that via anti-gravity experiments and then there's a question of how many how many different civilizations visit us how many different things how many different versions of these things are there if this is like a testing ground. Is it is this open to the general public of space? Al also not zero or one. Probably zero or 100. It's probably a zoo of things, right? It's that's the most likely thing. That was what was interesting about your episode that you did with Fowler where they were documenting the different shapes and I'm like, okay, where's the flying saucer? You don't have a flying saucer in this. How come you don't have a flying saucer? You have all these other shapes. Totally. You have a tic tac. You have a Tetris or whatever the [ __ ] it is. Uh-huh. Where's the one that everybody sees? The iconic Yeah. Billy Meyers. Yeah. Yeah. That's weird. Yeah. You know, it is weird. Also, do you work for the CIA? I do not. I do not work for the CIA. Do you have to answer if I ask you? Is it like you remember those movies where you ask a guy if they're an undercover cop? You ask them if they're a cop, they have to tell you. People really used to believe that, but it's just a fictional tool. They don't really have to tell you that they're undercover cops. They don't have to tell you. But there is I think there's like 1 22 triple 3 or whatever where like if you're CIA you can't be [ __ ] with domestic stuff which I think they break all the [ __ ] time. So I don't think that's a reason. They probably passed laws that bypassed that a long time ago for sure. Well I Yeah. I mean I think they also killed JFK. This is the Baineson Lab video. There you go. What's really crazy is that looks remarkably similar to the design that Lazar said the generator looks like that's inside the UFO. Well, here's something crazy. Lazar says there are two different gravities, gravity A and gravity B. Again, I think Townsen Brown was a poor theorist, but he wrote a paper called the structure of space while he was at Martin Vega Corporation. By the way, Towns and Brown started working at Martin Vega the year that skunk works formed, which I think is very interesting. Um, and he says in structure of space there are two forms of gravity. He says there are gravity wells and gravity hills. And he talk he talks about how the Yeah, it's crazy. He talks about the protons um in an atom outweighing the electrons. And so you get this weak positive charge for all ma matter that creates uh a gravity well like this inward pull. But in fact, it's sort of this electromagnetic derivative or whatever in his model. And again, I would not overindex on his theory. I think there's tons of proof that he just figured out this topological physics effect and other people figured out theory. Maybe even they just have like locally useful theories. Ryan Graves was on your show and talked about extended electronamics. Hal Putoff's probably the top tip of the spear as far as a lot of theory around this exotic stuff. Sunny White, you know, other people like that. But um yeah, it is interesting that you both of these guys had two versions of gravity. Yeah, it's very interesting. It's very interesting. And the the Lazar stuff to me, it's if a guy's going to be a liar like that, he's going to tell a lot of lies, right? It's not going to be just one lie from ' 89. Yeah. You know what I mean? That you basically say the same version of forever. Yeah. I mean the the the other weird thing in that story is in Messengers of Deception, Jacques Valle's book, he talks about because he's not a believer in Lazar. He talks about Lazar being forced to drink a liquid. And Lazar even talks about this openly that he was forced to to drink a liquid and it tastes like pine or something and it and it causes memory lapses in certain cases. So that's also a weird factor. But there is so much I think my buddy Luigi I also have a good friend named Chris Ramsey who has an amazing UFO channel called Area 52 and he's met Lazar through Luigi and I don't want to blow up their spot but they've given me a lot of ammo as far as just Lazar being at Area 51 S4 and so it's it's so fascinating. So they gave him this liquid to kill his memory. That's the idea behind it. I don't know if he knew the intent. it was just drink this or whatever. And then he said that it caused at least in the Valle readout he says that it caused memory lapses is the quote in messengers of deception. H but here's this where it gets so confusing. If you have MK Ultra was super widespread. It was deleted you know the church committee or whatever but like it was it was a very widespread program. What would be one of the number one use cases where you'd use MK Ultra? It wouldn't necessarily be to trick somebody into view saying that they saw a flying saucer. It would be around the flying saucer program to [ __ ] with the person's memory so that they couldn't read certain things out, right? So, it's just this again, it's hard to say. Well, then there's also weird stuff like the large folder that was on religion. Yes. You know, like how much of that is just misinformation. I think a lot of that was passage material cuz it's similar to passage material. What does that mean? It's basically stuff given to somebody where it's like certain provably false things. You can track where the provably false stuff goes or whatever. It's also a litmus test to see if they'll believe it. It's like spooky intel [ __ ] And in in 79, there's a guy named Rick Dodie who drives a guy named Paul Benowitz insane. Basically, he views this vertically taking off and landing exotic craft at Kirtland Air Force Base where there are a lot of interesting things, you know, seen. And um he is is shown similar things along with Linda Molton How is taken uh in front of a two-way mirror and Rick Dodie, this Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent who we know is acting in bad faith at that time. he's even come out and admitted this shows her this thing called Project Garnett and it is oddly similar around accelerated evolution to the stuff that they showed Lazar. Also, if you have a UFO program that's extremely compartmentalized, why at the same time give the person this like onlogical model of reality while you're compartmentalizing it? Doesn't make sense. So, and this is what I love about Lazar. Lazar will admit that like he's like I think a lot of that stuff could have been fake and [ __ ] and I only am relaying what I saw when with regards to the craft and I don't take any of that stuff fully at face value. So it was there's project Galileo, there's time, there's looking glass, you know, there are these projects that were super interesting and spooky and I think worthy of engagement with like all these weird limited hangouts are. But do any of these people that supposedly had had contact with extraterrestrial entities or interdimensional or whatever they are, do any of these people recall a conversation where they warn us about AI? That's such a great question. I don't think so. I don't think so either. It's almost always nuclear. That seems crazy. Well, maybe that seems crazy that there there's no discussion about you are on the verge of something truly spectacular. Maybe AI is their control system. Maybe they are AI. Maybe they are AI. Maybe AI becomes that. Maybe biological limitations need to be traversed and the best way to traverse them is to eliminate biology. We are now experimenting with computational biology. You can use things like like this neuroscientist Carl Fristen, the free energy princ there's this company called Cortical Labs and I I think they might play up some of their results, but they use these microelerode uh plate arrays and they program like rat cultured rat neurons to do basic computational rat uh tasks. And so like if that's the super base level, right? Like we're just creating the like transistors for this like new model of computation. But if you go way out into the future. You have anatomical compilers, 3D printers of bodies, and you know, these things could be drone avatar. That's why when people are like, why do they crash? This could be their Earth homeostasis kit that they've deployed. They're just Vonoyman replicator probes meant to, you know, oversee the Earth. And, you know, a little node lights up when we create nuclear or like an AI thing or like Well, it's also like Basula, you know, Diana Basulka. She she thinks they're donations. That's what she says. Yeah. They're called donation sites and yeah like which is like if you want accelerated evolution like hey wouldn't it be cool if you guys made this leave the wheel you know just look over here leave this leave that it kind of I mean that's the way to get someone to think outside the box plant the seed yeah you just you you don't want to wait for these morons to figure out how to make this if you were trying to accelerate technological evolution in North Sentinel Island which has no contact with humans what would you you might just airdrop a computer. Figure it out. You know, they'd be like, "A computer? This is start with a lighter." Sure. I don't think they have fun. Yeah. Yeah. Computer might be a little advanced. Yeah. But yeah, you would give them some stuff. Yep. Yeah. And let them figure out how to make that stuff and give them the raw materials to make that stuff. Totally. Especially if you like you have some complex alloy like this bismouth, whatever the hell it is with layered like find that, figure that out. Can you make it like you get your best scientists and you compartmentalize it? You do it over decades because you really can't open it up. And this is one of the things that Lazar said that he had deep frustration about while working at S4 is that you can't do science like that where everything's compartmentalized. You need to be able to open it up to collaboration. And there was you couldn't collaborate. You weren't allowed to. Yeah. So it's like we're not going to get anywhere. Okay. We're going to bring in new people, you know? We're going to bring in a new guy. See if this new genius can Hey, what do you think of this? It's like what is it? You tell me. That could be a part of what's happening with disclosure where if you have cold war war era secrecy. It's like if we're ahead of Russia and China, clamp down. We like can't let them know anything, right? But then all of a sudden maybe they play catch-up. And then all of a sudden maybe you have this archaic cargo cult system that doesn't work anymore to avoid foyer requests where you have restricted data covering, you know, uh material found by specific aerospace corporations that aren't even our best and brightest when it comes to our defense primes anymore or whatever. And you're you're at the top of the national security pie and you're like, "Holy [ __ ] like we need to update this stuff. So, we need to broaden the surface area without giving away the crown jewels. We need some disclosure on these things. You can't It is maladaptive from a national security standpoint to have some STEM student in Kentucky who's a prodigy to not even think this [ __ ] is real. Right. Right. Right. And then you're dealing with China where they've got it completely opened up and they're like, "Make this completely opened up." And like I don't know if you've read there's a um great uh Chinese science fiction novel called The Three Body Problem. Great show on Netflix, too. It's amazing. and the the CCP will show up at your door and say come work for us. You are working here and that's not really the way we do things. So the way we do things is like you get the stuff out in these kind of partial limited hangouts. You go compete like just like the AI stuff, you know, right? It's like see what happens over there. If you leak it, they'll just [ __ ] kill you. Exactly. You're not gonna leak it. No. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's to me the the question of civilization. Are we alone? It is the question and I don't think we are. Yeah, that's my my my gut instinct. I don't think we are. It seems so ridiculous when people do think we are. You know, I agree. I just But what about the numbers? Just the sheer numbers like it doesn't make any sense that this is so unique that we in this one very tiny planet. It's spinning around a not so special star. AAM's razor is we are not alone. You have the Firmeny paradox. You have the Drake equation. You have all these sort of rationalist ways of arguing that. But also look at there's a great book called The Half-Life of Facts by Sam Arbisman. And he talks about how like at any given time 50% of you know received knowledge like our our physical model of the universe is wrong. So you can say those things are showing up in the sky that is wrong because physics but historically you would have been wrong. Like that's crazy. It's a bad point, right? And so if you actually look at, you know, whether we're alone or not, modern enlightenment history is a detour from the past. If you look at every culture, whether it's or or maybe a better example is medieval Christianity with St. Thomas Aquinas or just read the New Testament like a multitude of angels. You have angels and demons, you know, that's kind of the passport to Meonia, Dina, American cosmic thesis. Like this stuff has been going on forever. You look at the the Davas and you know in in Hindu culture or the jin in in Islamic culture like we are outnumbered in our modern you know enlightenment rational skeptic epistemology. Yeah we really are. And how many depictions from the past of flying things? Ezekiel from the Bible vimmanas all these different like what are they saying? What are these things? Like what do you think that stuff is? Like what is it? Yeah. You know, and but then again, you and I, neither one of us have had an experience. So, we're we're just like [ __ ] seeing in the wind. I've seen a UFO. But what have you seen? I've seen a few. But, um, really? Yeah. Yeah. How have you been so lucky? I don't know. I don't know. And because they know there like, who knows? There are UFO researchers that like don't like to talk about this, but I think the move is just be honest. Like, I've seen the thing and I don't know what to say. Uh, I was in Laurel Canyon where I used to live and um I saw a thing that looked like a [ __ ] school bus. It looked like like no visible propulsion. This like sort of low humming noise or whatever. It was maybe 50 60 70 ft high like above the tree right above the treetops. Uh the the the trippiest part of the experience and why this is it's just so weird is I was with um this woman I was kind of dating at the time and we were taking a walk in Laurel Canyon and uh she was like uh are you into aliens? I was like actually I kind of am into I was kind of interested in that topic and and then I think I joked back I was like I kind of want to meet an alien and she was like me too. And then she goes uh you'll you'll meet them when you're when you stop looking for them. Oh that [ __ ] is an alien. And then as we're as we're this is the weirdest part of the whole story. As we're walking, it's like sunset in Laurel Canyon. We walk by a guy with a metal detector who's like looking for something. It's like why are you looking for something at sunset in Laurel Canyon or whatever. So like that felt like this weird like you know like mirroring of our conversation. I again I have no [ __ ] idea. Then we walk in into this little clearing and we see this like school bus thing like just go right over the tree. What color was it? It was silver metallic like an Airstream trailer. Like an air like an Airstream ta trailer. Yeah, I can send you guys a video. I went on Chris Ramsey's podcast. I described it and I was sent a video and for all I know, this video is [ __ ] fake, by the way. But it was the thing that looked most like what I saw because it's doesn't match up with like the saucer, you know, triangle thing. Yeah. And I don't know, I am almost more inclined to say discount my own thing over like the Qcle cleared guys who've like seen these things at new. What was it in the sky for? It was in the sky for like a a few seconds because we couldn't even see past the clearing or whatever. She said she saw it go over the trees and then descend down into the distance. I did not see that. Huh. And like you're talking Laurel Canyon has is like mostly residential. So like like where did it descend? Right. Right. I don't know. So, what else have you seen? You said you saw more than one thing. Yeah. So, another time I was actually with a friend who invests like with me and Peter and is like the most rational guy you'll ever meet. Like he's uh he's a fan of like Nam Chosky and like David Hume like like he is a modern rationalist atheist skeptic. And uh we went surfing that day. We were back at his place. I was super into holotropic breath work at the time which I I love. And uh we were doing holographic breath work. Five minutes in, we both see these like metallic looking orbs. This was this time super high up into in the sky like uh probably, you know, higher than what you would definitely higher than a drone. And one's bobbing above him, one's bobbing above me. Similar to like the typical like orb that, you know, a lot of people sort of describe like the Mosul orb or whatever, you know, a lot of these sightings. And um he looks at me and he I go like, "What the [ __ ] is that?" He goes, "Dude, I think that's like some secret black locked tech or whatever." And then I don't even say anything. Two seconds goes by and then he looks at me and he goes, "Dude, that's not [ __ ] from here." He's like, "That's not Lockheed. Like I don't know what that is." Do you entertain the possibility there states of consciousness that you could achieve where these things become visible? Absolutely. And you've had Rick Straman on. He talks, you know, DMT, the spirit molecule. He talks about DMT as like night vision or like like it's like a it's like goggles or a window, you know, it's like Aldis Huxley, the doors of your perception. Are you superimposing a hallucination onto reality or are you just seeing? We see a limited part of the electromagnetic wave spectrum. We see between 400 and 700 nanometers. Our audio range, you know, there's a certain decel limit, right? So, like when you take a substance like that, are you seeing things that are in objective reality, but we just don't have access to them? It's it's actually adaptive for us not to have access to them in our waking reality. And so, it's this interesting philosophical question. I don't know the answer to it, right? Would we be would we even be able to function if we had access to that? Probably not. Probably not. No, it is. There's a guy named Donald Hoffman who's a cognitive psychologist and he talks about it's like why don't we see electromagnetic waves themselves like why aren't you seeing Hertz frequencies it's we need to iconize everything we see just like a you know desktop computer you know like why do you see red because oh boom red blood got to run you know whatever and then they hack that with notifications on social media but the point is we are seeing inherently a collapsed condensed version of reality we aren't seeing the thing itself Yeah. And so it ends up in these onlogical loops where like yeah, some rationalist skeptic can be like you're you're lying. That's it ends up in this not even wrong category of like I can't say that what I just said is definitively true as far as it being a window into some other realm. But neither the skeptic we just live in the age of disenchantment where you say don't trust your eyes, right? And they're that's as much faith-based dogma as what I'm saying. So who knows? And that's why I rest when I talk about this stuff on the show, I rest more on the nuclear cases because it fits to our modern epistemology more, right? But it's not to say you should discount these, you know, people's experiences where they do, you know, maybe they're in a peak state of consciousness and they experience a thing. Maybe that thing is real either. There might be multiple different types of things that come by. And the the nuclear one is a weird one. I mean, if you were from another planet or some other place and you recognized an emerging civilization that had nuclear capabilities, you'd be like, "Hey [ __ ] slow down. Hit the break, son." You know, you would freak out unquestionably. You know, that's why we named the the rooms at the Comedy Mothership, Fat Man and Little Boy, because that's when they started showing up. That's when we got a lot of sightings was post post the bombs. Totally. And I love I love the mothership, by the way. It's amazing. And I love going and seeing how UFO the like, you know, in preparation for this, I've had a couple friends be like, "Man, Joe Joe's like anti-UFO though." And I'm like, "No, he's just frustrated with disclosure. Go to the mothership. The whole [ __ ] thing is getting so anybody say I'm anti UFO. There's [ __ ] UFOs everywhere. It's one of the desk. There's one behind me. I know. That's so sad. And you broke the biggest UFO story of all time. Like it's You've done more for disclosure than anybody in my opinion." Well, I'm not anti-UFO, but I'm I'm allergic to [ __ ] And this stuff, some of it smells like [ __ ] which is I would be remiss if we didn't talk about those little mummies in Peru. Yeah, dude. What do you think is going on there? They break my brain. They were They are They are This was the most frustrating case I've ever had to deal with. And I wish I could give you a definitive these things are definitely dead aliens. I cannot say that definitively at all. I do think there's a lot of reason to believe that they are forensically organisms. They are re they're organisms that if they're not they're incredible works of art. If they're not they are the most sophisticated hoax ever that that basically tricked forensic experts from uh John McDow who run who just won the the greatest award in forensics you could win or whatever. um the grandall award uh who is the president of the American Forensics uh uh scientific association or whatever in the US. Jim Kur Caruso who's the medical examiner, chief medical examiner uh in Denver. Uh the equivalent of McDow is a guy named Dr. David Ruiz. So he's the Peruvian head of their forensics association and the head of the Mexican Navy forensics. This guy named Dr. Jose Sal. All of these guys have seen so I think we're kind of getting ahead of ourselves. Let's explain to people this so they can be standalone cuz a lot of people like what the [ __ ] are they talking about? There are these very small mummified looking things that are in Peru that seem to look exactly like a similar kind of thing to a human being but varies enough that you know it's not us. And it has more ribs. it is more spinal columns or more more um more discs. This is what they look like. And there's X-rays of them. And that's where it gets really weird. And they're tridactyl, right? So they have three fingers and three toes. Yep. And the So these were discovered in 2015 in a cave uh by a guy named Leandro, who goes by Mario. And this is one of the headaches about the case is like we don't have good provenence on it. So he is this werro uh gravedigger guy. And they were found in dietmacous earth. So there's actually an idea that they might not even be mummies. Dietimmacous earth is a desicant. And so they were dried out and a lot of the organs are actually still inside the the the bodies. And there are three different types. There are S types which are these little winged creatures. There are J types. The J types are probably they were most popularized in this Mexican congress where these things were outed in September of 2023 where um they look like almost Close Encounters. Jamie, if you scroll down, like you see that peruse congress like right there. Like that thing looks like this like jokey like Close Encounters of the Third Kind. Like it looks like it looks totally fake. Right. So that's those are the J types. They're like 25ish, maybe 25 to 30 of those. And then there's the ones that they've x-rayed and that's where it gets really weird. The weirdest ones that I was talking about the forensics people kind of evaluating are these M types. These are like four to five feet. They look pretty anatomically consistent. Have you seen them in person? I have. Really? Yeah. And what what was your feeling? My feeling was it was this Keep those images up, please. It was, as with a lot of these things, oscillating between, holy [ __ ] this thing is not from here, and then, dude, you have to like chill and like there's so many other things, you know, there's so many other gates this has to get through for us to to actually, you know, verify this stuff. See if you can get the go the X-rays, Jamie. Find the images from the X-rays. That That's one, but there's one that's a little bit better because it's one of the fetal position. Um, it's uh Jamie in my document actually. Look at that one. Okay, there you go. So, that one has eggs inside of it. What? If you go Yeah. Monzer Monzerat, which is hips. Yeah. How weird. So, if you go to Yeah. If you go to um Monzerat clip. Yeah. So, this this one's pregnant and has what they are claiming to be a tridactyl fetus inside of it. Yeah. How many of these do they have? So, they have 8 to 10 of these M types, these kind of most realistic looking ones. Eight to 10. 8 to 10. And then they have uh 25 to 30 of the J types. So, yeah, look at that. That's a that's a 3D reconstruction of the CAT scan. What? So, they have teeth. That's weird. They have teeth. Yeah, they have they have tendons. They have bones. They have cartilage. They have organs inside. And then I So, this is where we need to verify stuff. They even have actually um Could you go back to the part of the video where What's that? Yeah, that part. What the [ __ ] is that, man? That's crazy. They have osmium and cadmium implants in them, which are rare earth metals that were discovered in the 19th century, too. This is art. If someone made this, I need to buy one. Like, you need to tell me how much this costs. I need to put it on my table cuz you're a genius. If you've made that and you tricked everybody into thinking that that's real, you're a goddamn genius and you shouldn't just be hoaxing people. Well, so then the alternative is that's real. If that's real, that's completely insane. Joe, fortunately and unfortunately for you maybe, but unfortunately for the case, these weras, these gravediggers are selling some of these things on the black market. And this case is the wild wild west. It is so much I get I've heard seven figures. Seven figures. I've heard a lot of money. Um Jeez Louise. But um is Peter Teal buying one of these? Don't say yes. Look at that thing. It's wow. So crazy. But there there are serious problem. I can I I want to caveat all of this and like, you know, I don't want to be overly sensationalist about this. If it's a hoax, it's the best hoax ever. It is the My friend Michael Misola who like kind of rolled the red carpet down, allowed me to even see these things. he's making a video or making a documentary on this um that's coming out this August and it's called this is not a hoax. I told them to put in parenthesis or this is the most sophisticated hoax ever because the DNA testing sucks. There's no signal the signal to noise ratio sucks on the DNA. How come? because there was probably human contamination like the the um the uh uh NCBI which is this like biotech repository where you have a lot of this genetic information on two of the bodies Victoria and Maria uh this is all publicly available they've done analysis on this and like the camp that is very pro you know these being alien is this guy Haime MSAN and he is um I actually think he's awesome I love He's um like this former 60 Minutes guy in Mexico and he's paid a lot of money to protect a lot of the these bodies. He's very open about like we just need more scientific research. Uh you know, he wants more eyes on this thing, but some of the genetics uh you know, some of the genetics researchers that they're basing the stuff on. I spoke to one of them. This guy's name is Dr. Ricardo Ronell and he's a biologist. I don't think he's actually a geneticist. And his belief is like he was like this is you know there's 30% of this is like unknown DNA that we don't know and then in the 70% you have mitochondrial DNA from Myonmar and then you have um uh uh DNA from a parasite in Africa and you also have bonobos and chimpanzeee DNA which means it was an ancient primate that uh held this DNA uh uh uh because it was before they phoggenetically split off. So what he's saying and this is crazy is he was saying that like a a a homminid species an early homminid species went from Asia to Africa and because there's some theories that they actually you know East Africa is not like the the first homminid species maybe it was East Asia so it's already like kind of requiring some leaps of logic or whatever and then had sex with this like primate thing and you end up with this hybrid and then another leap of logic is that before Pizaro and all the kungista is like there was there's actually like transmission of you know beings from Africa to South America. I don't believe that. That's it's crazy. It's like saying that you know the Penglin theory is better than the you know the the Wuhan lab leak theory which is just like AAM's razor. That's not real. Um well we do know that there were other types of homminids that coexisted with human beings. Dennisovvens. Yeah. The the Flora people the the hobbit people. What what is the carbon dating on these things? Carbon dating ranges from 700 years ago, which would actually be Incan. That would be because Incan started in like 1450. Um, and then uh all the way down to 800, 1800 years ago, which is the Nazca people. That's what's fascinating because, you know, there's this there's this mystery of the Hobbit people, right, where they they didn't really think that that was there's a lot of speculation that it was some bizarre type of human being that was deformed and tiny. And then they realized like, no, this is a specific branch of the human chain just like Dennis Oven, just like Neanderl. There's a thing called the Orang Pend. Have you ever heard of that? No. What is that? They think I believe it's Indonesia and maybe Vietnam, uh, where people talk about these little tiny hairy people that live in the jungle. Whoa. And so these Flores things, there's there's a few biologists that believe these things are still alive. Interesting. They think even on the island of Flores, they might still be alive. What? Yeah. Are you serious? Right. So if they're alive, if this turns out to be true, like let's imagine it is cuz there's been things like the celacanth which they thought were extinct for millions of years and then they caught one and they're like, "Oh my god, this is a prehistoric fish and still alive and now they know that there's a population of them." But this is the deep ocean, right? Much less explored. Um, but when you look at Indonesia, when you look at uh Flores, the island of Flores, look at all these places like you're talking about insanely dense vegetation that is virtually uninhabited. So maybe like and these things used to live on that island for sure. We've got bones. We know they lived. We know they used tools. We know they probably had language. They lived on that island. They might still be alive. So, we didn't know about these things and I think was it the '9s I think when they discovered them. Dennisovven's I think was like 2010. And then this new species, the big-headed people. Were they julians? What are they called? Yeah, that's it. That's like a few months ago, right? They found these, right? And this is another type of human being. So, what what are the odds that there's some three-footed three-toed thing that existed a few thousand years ago? And there are pictoglyphs all over the region, both in Nazca and Pulpa in southern Peru. So, this is one that looks fake as [ __ ] but this guy is driving in his motorcycle and he's uh filming and he claims that he got this thing running away. No way. A little hairy thing. Yeah. You could see as he's riding his motorcycle, he this thing like darts across the road in front of him. And this is a few years ago, too, where, you know, CGI sucked. So, there it is. You could see it real briefly for a second. It just runs across the road. Look at that. Oh my god. What is that? I don't know. But if this thing did exist at one point in time, I mean, god damn, it looks good. Yeah. If it did exist at one point in time and people do see it all the time, it there might be a small population of them that are still alive, that thing, the X-ray of it or the the MRI, the CAT scan looked human but weird. Yes. But the teeth and the jaw, it looked like a deformed human. And there it is important to note that there were skull elongation rituals going on as early as the Paracas people which were pre uh the Nazca people. What were they imitating? That's the interesting question. What? The Nazca lines. Why are they making They It's probably humans that made these things, but they're things that only make sense from an aerial view. And they're miles long. And they're miles long. What are you doing? And there are there are pictoglyphs, you know, cave art all over the region with three fingered beings with tidactyl beings. Are there really? There are. And this is the weirdest thing. There's a guy named Theoria who is like the first westerner. He's this French kind of he's an amazing archaeologist and explorer. And um he was the first guy that met Leandro, the the the um uh gravedigger who found the bodies to begin with. He ki is the actually like local dialect there that's spoken. He says that the name of the general region means uh laboratory for insemination and cloning. What? Yeah. What? Yeah. In Calki. Yeah. What? So, like I have I I need to corroborate this. Like I don't have the the skills to do that, but like that's what he says. It's crazy. What the [ __ ] man? I know. But then holy [ __ ] Why this case is such a headache is like there's this guy Steve Meera who I think is a totally he's a he's a UFO researcher. He's the one of the less mushyrained UFO researchers. There's a lot of mushy brain UFO researchers. Really smart guy. I've like quoted him in a lot of my other videos. And he's like, we looked at one of the M types, one of the bigger ones that like I'm still holding out hope for cuz like I'd love it to be real. And he said that he did genetic analysis on two of the fanges and one came back male, one came back female. And so he was like, I think they were constructed. But I'm like, how do you get by these forensic experts? So it's this weird, it's just the DNA stuff. You don't get a good signal. And the reason that nobody even cares, this is the most interesting paleoarchchaeological case today in my opinion. The reason that people don't even care is because in 2023 when these were popularized by Haime Massan where he rolled out this Jai Posaphina, the one that looked like kind of Close Encounters with the Third Kind in front of the Mexican Congress. This guy named Manuel Caceras who was an artist who was making renditions of the things with like wood and sticks and stuff glued together. He was apprehended at the airport by the chief Peru prosecutor, this guy named Flavio Estrada. And there were Reuters picked this up saying this is all fake because of these fake and I have this in this documentary that I'm coming out with where he goes this was art. Um we dub it but he goes this was art. It's crazy. So that's the signals crossed. The signals crossed and I think if there's anything about this case it's like let's get our best and brightest on it and figure it out. I think we can figure it out quickly if we had the right research. And there all these interpols like you can't move the bodies from from Peru and it's crazy. Well, even if it's just a different branch of the human chain, I mean that just if it if that's a different branch off the human tree, that's fascinating enough. I agree that there's like three-fingered, three-toed people that lived totally with a weird shaped head. And if you find if the there is phenotypic inheritance where you find that the tridactyl being inside Monzerat's belly is also tractyl then at what point do you go this is the how can he hoax that? How can he hoax that? That's crazy. Yeah. So and and he's by the way is the head of the Mexican um uh medical navy uh uh he he was thrown in jail for supporting this case because they were like we don't want to be associated with this. And now the new secretary of the Navy in Mexico has brought him back and he's sort of being vindicated. But he is like I was like Jose like if you showed this cat scan image of the baby tridactyl to any normal doctor they didn't know anything about the case would they say it had three fingers. He goes yes. So if that's the case I think that is a big deal. But then you have the Steve Mera thing. So I just I don't want to come out fully, you know. I don't know. Of course. Of course. Yeah. Of course. But I mean, how much evidence would there be? This is the problem with fossils, right? Because when things die, they don't really create fossils unless it's a very extraordinary instance, you know, like something unusual has to occur. You got to get trapped in mud, right? You know that's how so most of the things that have lived we don't have fossils of which is if this thing was a small percentage or small population small percentage of the the living humans and some of them are like that and they just died off like 500 years ago thousand years ago and these ones got saved because they were around a dietimmacous earth mine which preserved their organs and their whole body. Just from an anthropology perspective that should be the most fascinating thing but it's got the stink of a hoax on it. So people don't want to go and study it. Yeah. I totally part of what I almost want to do is like a nature of reality fund that I tie to the show where I'm like I I see so many cases like this where I'm like if we just had some money and it's like so important for humanity, right? And it's like nonprofit. It's just let's just pay to get the best people. I think like one of the problems with modernity is like the smartest people are working on the dumbest problems. We're building $15 billion particle accelerators. People are stuck in string theory. We're like debating all this dumb [ __ ] And you have these things. I don't know if they're real. You can debunk it. Fine. But if they're real, and it's not 0% that they're real according to these forensic experts. Let's pour some resources into it. Yeah, it might be real. They look real. They look kind of real. They look very real. When I was in person, I was freaking I was like, "What the fuck?" Like I said, if that's art, whoever made it is [ __ ] incredible. If that's art, you you'd have to have a really deep understanding of anatomy and then alter it. Yeah. And then make it uniform so you do multiple versions of these things. Go back to that image again, Jamie. The one you just showed me. Look at that head, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That looks like a [ __ ] alien. It totally looks like an alien. The one other weird wrench that I I we should mention is there's a proteomics expert who wants to remain anonymous because I think he doesn't want to be associated with the stigma of this case. He looked at some proteins from an isolated skull of the J types. Now, I don't think the J types, the things that were rolled out in front of the Mexican Congress are necessarily real. I think maybe they were made in homage to these things that do look more real. and he found uh uh alpaca proteins on them. And so that that's an important another important point that you know is a little fly in the ointment here. So somebody probably made fake ones too. But but if there's a market where you can get seven figures for a real one, of course someone's going to make some fake ones. Totally. 100%. Yeah. But at the end of the day, like what is that? And why do they have three fingers? And the Lazar craft, didn't it have like some sort of an indentation for hands? It did. Yeah. And didn't have three fingers. Oh, I don't know. Did it. That would be wild. I don't know. I think it did. Oh my god. I think it did. And I think it was really small just like these things are. We're breaking ground on the Joe Rogan experience. What if that's it? That's crazy. You know, and also here's the thing. We have this concept of this coming from another planet, but it might not be from another planet. Yeah, it might be from here. Hal Putoff noted that on your show. He has a paper called the saluran hypothesis, which is you have cataclysms like the younger dus impact, you know, or other things like that. You have 66 million years ago, Luis Walter Alvarez, you know, there's the asteroid impact killed all the dinosaurs or whatever. What if break off civilization just like this $21 trillion is supposed to be funding. There you go. Right. like the underground those tunnels and caverns in Turkey where they have this immense underground civilization or city rather and it almost felt like maybe they were hiding out from a cataclysm or something and that's what they think it was. Yeah. So imagine if there's some breakoff civilization where they lived I mean we're talking hundreds of thousands of years ago but they're different than us and you know sometimes they come visit. Could be, man. Could be. Which is one of the reason why they come out of the ocean a lot and totally they're transmedium and like in some sense you would care way more about the nuclear stuff. You'd be like don't destroy your plan. Don't destroy our planet. We're here. You'll kill us too stupid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It also you're dropping nukes in the ocean. You know the Marshall Islands test. Exactly. That's nuts. Really nuts. Yeah. And I think Yeah. It's a whole other rabbit hole. I I don't know if you want to get it. See if you could find out if the Babzar ones had handprints for them. There's a hand scanner he talked about, but it wasn't about three fingers. No, the hand scanner was at um Los Alamos. I typed in Bob Lazar UFO three fingers AI says his claims have nothing to do with aliens with What did he say? Uh the controls for the the vehicle cuz So like mental, right? There's something about putting your hands on something. I believe there's something element 115. Didn't it say something about controls? Like that there what did the inside of the craft look like? Inside of craft. So that's Jeremy Corbel. I could skip through that real quick. Outlines. It says, "Okay." God, I want to say that they had three fingers. That would be wild. That would be [ __ ] insane cuz they're tiny. They have three fingers. That's these things. He said the seats were very small. Yeah. Yeah. They're supposed to like 3T tall or four feet tall. That's these things. There you go. That's these things. Yeah. And they're in the cave art. It looks like they're flying. It's like hard to say because it's on caves or whatever, but I want to see that, too. Yeah. Yeah. There's Yeah, you can do tridactyl cave art. God, how weird. And how old is this cave art? I think it's dates to the Nazca period. So around that time. See, let's go look up that first. You did tridactyl cave art. How weird. It's all so [ __ ] weird, man. Yeah, it's so weird. It's so weird. It's because it's almost like reality is [ __ ] with you. Yeah, it is. It is. And you have like the Amazon is There's probably one in my dock, Jamie, that I sent you. There's a couple there. Oh, there four. There's one there. There three. Yeah. Yeah. Whoa. Whoa. Three fingers and three toes. That's crazy. Textile fragments. Yeah. Wow. Circle 1000 AD. Whoa. Yeah. Three fingers, three toes, big crazy head, weird eyes. How [ __ ] strange, man. So nuts. There's so much we don't know. And everyone's scared of being ridiculous. I know. You know, everyone's scared. This one of the great things about what you do and what I do is we don't have to worry about being ridiculous. Totally. Cuz we just are. Yeah. And we don't have to be like, we have credentials, right? Right. Right. Worry about being taken seriously. Yeah. Because so many people do worry about it and they don't want to stick their neck out. But when you see something like this, the three fingers, three toaded artwork from a thousand [ __ ] years ago. Yeah. And it looks really weird. And then you see these things, you're like, "Hey, is that real?" Totally. And discoveries require boldness. They require like just going for it. And it's it's Yeah. It's this like kind of nitpicky credentialism of like I can't I can't say anything other than the established wisdom. What is your incremental addition then to human knowledge? Right. And when faced with undeniable evidence, will you relent? Will you give in? Or will you just like will you just like dig your heels in forever and claim [ __ ] till the till you drop off the face of the earth? Like look what's going on with Egypt? You know, like you know, and when I had Zahi Hawas on and he's just completely unwilling to look at that, what is it? Tommography. The data that shows that there might be something underneath the pyramids. Like this is [ __ ] This is like, is it a shore? How do you know? You don't even understand the science. How could you possibly know? No first principles arguments surrounding it. It's just no, it can't be or whatever. And I'm like, oh, so you're it's politics. It's science is supposed to be the most immune from politics and it's the most political thing. Weird. It is weird. When you find that out, it's so disappointing. It's so disillusioning. Totally. And then when you have these scientists that like dismiss people and they immediately start using ter Look at this one. That's so wild. This whatever that thing is around it has a like one arm with three and then one arm with three and one foot with three and one foot with three. But this one's inside of it. Wow. What is that supposed to be representing? Two heads. I don't know. God, there's a couple other things on the other page that had two headed cats. Maybe two heads but no eyes. How weird is that? Like what is that? Big eye. One eye here. One eye here. to an eye. Or maybe that's it inside something that it controls. You know what I'm saying? A little sports model, right? Where it's showing the fingers, meaning like the fingers are what operates this thing. What are you seeing? Yeah. This is so nuts, man. It's so crazy. All three fingers. Like, what are the [ __ ] odds of that? Yeah. Yeah. What are the odds that this is a thousand years old, these images and this these textiles, and then you find this stuff? Totally. Like what? And it's in the mythology and right, what the [ __ ] is going on, man? I know. It's so frustrating, Jesse. I'm with you, man. And the Amazon is the size of the Indian subcontinent. We have to like LAR it and like understand. We're finding cities every day. Like, we need to do the research. Yeah, we do. We do. Look at more of these. More three-finger ones. God, so weird. So different, too. Yeah. So weird. And that looks like almost that weird bird that we looked at the other day with Luke. Yeah, it does. Beep thing that was on a petetroglyph. Yeah. Next, I think Luke who hopefully will be an amazing guest on your show. He's been on I know. He was amazing. Yeah, he was fantastic. He was so good. He um he will say like he's been everywhere, right? And like he's always like Peru is the weirdest place I always go. Really? So, Wow. Yeah. Well, dude, thank you so much for coming in. I [ __ ] love your show. It's so good. It's excellent. American Alchemy. It's on YouTube. Uh, is it just Jesse Michaels on YouTube? Like, how do they find the channel? Jesse Michaels on YouTube. I have a [ __ ] which is where we It's called WH. It's an amazing place where we facilitate discussions about cool science and frontier stuff. I I don't know. I don't see. You must absorb because your stuff is really well produced. You must it must take an enormous amount of time to edit all that. Honestly, I'm burnt out. Listen, I'm glad you're doing it. I really appreciate you. I appreciate it. Everybody, go watch it. Go check out the channel. It's fantastic. Uh, if they want to find you on social media, what is your my social media? Uh, Jesse Michaels official on Instagram, Alchemy American. No way. Thank you. Bane of my existence. Is it? Yeah, I'm sure. Roll call back in the day. All right. Well, thank you so much. It was fun. Let's do it again sometime when more shit's going to come out. Hopefully. Let's do it. I'm awesome. Thank you. All right. Bye, everybody. [Applause] [Music] [Applause] [Music]