Top UFO Historian: "Don't Look in the Sky, They're Hiding Underwater!" | Richard Dolan

USO simply means unidentified submerged objects, water-based UFOs or water-based UAP. That's it. Um, and you know, I've I'd heard of this type of phenomenon for many, many years. Uh, it's always been very interesting. I mean, to me, intrinsically, it's interesting to hear a story about an object that comes out of the ocean. Yeah. Making a big uh display like that. And I thought, I mean, how many how many of these stories exist? Uh, I have a website uh with a lot of amazing members and uh they'll ask me questions. One person asked me a question about a particular case from 1945 near the Aleutian Islands, a little island called Adac Island out there. And there is a case from the summer of 1945 where a US transport ship world war the Pacific war was still happening. Mhm. Uh they were returning from Japan to uh Seattle and they were by the illusions and apparently an object appeared to have come out of the water. A discshaped object circles around the ship twice and then takes off. So that was a case that was somewhat known to me and it's known to other researchers. And I just did like a little bit of extra research and I'll put together like a little video things like that from my website. But I got really intrigued by it and I thought to myself, this is back, this is three years ago, so in 2022. I thought, what other good cases are there? Like I just wanted to pull them together. And I started to realize there were a couple of books that had been done on this. There was book back in 1970 by an American researcher named Ivan Sanderson, a very good book. Uh there was another very good book by uh the recently deceased researcher named Carl Feind who wrote a very good book on water and UFOs. Uh but not much else. There was a couple of others here and there and I thought I want to collect them. How many can I find? Like that was where I started and are they good? And and I just got more and more into it. I started doing more of these little mini presentations for my website and it just became by the summer of 2022 it was kind of a mania and I thought I'll see if I will do a book see what I come up with and that turned out into uh what will be a three volume project. The first volume I just published a couple of months ago and that and it will be followed by the other two which will be out this year. I've collected about 700 cases. There's many more than that I've no doubt. Uh, I eliminated quite a few in, uh, looking for them because I really wanted cases that, uh, had some meat on the bones that you could kind of work with and give a good description of. So, I've got about just under 700 uh, from around the world. And some of them go back kind of far, not not into the distant distant ancient. Uh, the first really good case that I consider good is actually only from 1717, so like 300 years ago. It's pretty good case though. And then they become better over the years. Uh, a lot more detail. And I just started collecting them. I wanted to breathe like fresh life. Uh, 99% of them are completely forgotten even by like experienced researchers. I think they're just completely they've gone by the boards. And I thought uh they deserve they deserve a fresh retelling of them. And I wanted to do that. And then it just morphed into more and more things. I ended up getting a really great illustrator, uh, a man named Alan Lavine, who's a wonderful man, and did beautiful illustrations for this project. And I did a bunch of other things. I wanted to put each one on a map. I did that and and I did a I ended up doing a statistical analysis that I did not anticipate doing when I started, but that became kind of a significant thing, too. And that taught me more about this phenomenon, just looking at some of the statistics that seem to jump out at me. So all in all, like you you're seeing this phenomenon evolve over especially the last couple of hundred years. It's like a little dance like we're they're observing us. We're observing them and and there is reason to believe that they're that they adapted that they've adapted their some of their behaviors due to our radical transformation of our own technology especially over the last century. I mean it's kind of an amazing thing. You know you think of where we were in the oceans a little over 100 years ago. We the first operational submarine didn't deploy until the year 1900 and that was just like you know barely able to get in there. So we were we were not really going deep into the water until the 20th century. So now we have hundreds of them circling the oceans loaded with nuclear warheads. Exactly. Exactly. So that's a major like imagine you're them. Let's say you're you are them. You're here. You're watching these humans, these observant, intelligent, multi-fingered humans who can manipulate their environment, who are now organized into these collective, aggressive communities we call nations, peering over the fence at each other with deadly weapons that could end the entire planet's existence. And you're watching this and you're you're realizing, okay, so they're probably this far away from developing strong AI, from quantum computing, and from leaping into our world. Like, when's that going to happen? Right. Cuz like you can see the whole trajectory. You know that like a few generations ago they were all living in wooden huts and now wow like here we are about to reach the singularity. Yes. Exactly. So I have little doubt that any observing intelligence like they can see this whole thing play out and so they're watching but but I have no doubt that we have our own little unique variations on the theme of developing intelligence. Maybe we're more aggressive. Maybe we're not as a I don't know. But we're certainly very aggressive with each other. We're high highly territorial. So they're watching all of this and they're seeing, you know, 1950s we start developing nuclear submarines that can stay underwater basically forever. And we're now we develop these uh underground sonar systems that are mapping all activity or increasingly more and more uh underwater activity including anomalous activity, right? Mhm. And not just Soviet or Russian subs, but everything. Yeah. Uh and so they have to adapt. And I think when I was looking at the statistics of this um this whole thing happened because I finished writing all the cases and I'm talking to my wife and she's like you know it would be a great idea if if for each case you had like bunch of categories so that someone could just like look at the categories like uh what color was the craft, what shape was the craft, what was it doing with the was it under the water, did it emerge from the water, how close are the witnesses and I'm like damn it that's a really good idea. I didn't want to do it because it was a lot of extra work. I had to go back over every case and siphon out that information, but it was a great idea and I did do it and I'm very glad I did it because then that allowed me to put all of that into a spreadsheet and look at like almost 700 cases and like 20. It's a big spreadsheet. So, it's like a database you've built. Yeah. And anyone can download. It's a free download. I have it linked on my website. You can go check it out. But basically, I'm an amateur with statistical analysis. I can't pretend that I'm some genius at it, but I you can still see things. So, like one thing I noticed is one category was I broke it down into day or night. Simple. Did this happen when the sun was out or when it was dark? Like very simple little metric there. And one thing I noticed was that up until around 1967-68, it was almost exactly 50/50 day versus night. And then suddenly, starting in the late60s, USOS. Yeah. USOS. Exactly. Starting in the late 60s, it goes to 75% at night and it was it remained that to this day. 75%. Now, I mean, does that mean I just had too small a data sample and I need to get more cases? Yeah, maybe. Could it be that I I was just somehow uh not selecting a broad spectrum of cases? I mean, all of that's possible. I don't think so. I tried to pick what I thought were the best and most meaty cases and something seems to have happened in the late60s. How do you go about mining all this information? Do you just look for and just scrub the internet for cases involving usoss or do you interview specific people, ask them? A little bit of both. Okay. Mostly mostly pulling out the information from there are a couple of uh websites where there's a lot of information. So, one is the National UFO Reporting Center that's run by a very wonderful man named Peter Davenport who's run it for years and uh they've got 100,000 or more cases there that he's collected going back many many years. So, that's that's important. Uh MUON, the Mutual UFO Network has a database which I was they graciously allowed me to use their database which is nice because I'm not a Muon investigator, but they uh they knew what kind of work I was doing and they said yes, you can. And then uh I mentioned Carl Finte earlier. He uh had a website where he collected a bunch of these cases. So I looked at all of those. And then there's books and like out of print magazines from the 1970s and you I'd look for and just get them and and um find these cases. Where are people seeing these UF USOs in the for the most part? Is there is there is there one spot in the world where they seem to be most mostly condensed to or confined to? And second second question is what kind of people are reporting these? Yeah, there are hot spots. We probably part of the problem with USOS is we're all like we live on the land. We're land lovers and so usually you're not out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. So that's a problem right there. Uh navies are the US Navies, but they don't like to talk. You'll get Navy stories from some Navy guy like 20, 30 or more years after they retire when sometimes anonymously they will report something to some uh website somewhere like that happens and I I've tried to collect all of those. They're very interesting. But basically we are, you know, so when people see these they're usually on the coast or maybe they're on a lake or river, but if it's an ocean base, which is most of them, it's along along the coast. That's where people What about like um oil rigs? Yeah, a couple of them. There's a good one from the Gulf of Mexico. Am I Gulf of America? Gulf of Mexico. Where am I? Gulf of America, brother. That's where we are right there. Golf right there. Exactly. So, one of my There's quite a few from the Gulf here. Quite a few. And uh one of my favorite ones, this is from the National UFO Reporting Center. It's from 2017. It's not that long ago. a uh guy operating on a rig rode into New Fork, the website, and he uh described this. He said, "I was with a bunch of other guys on our rig, and there was another rig, he said, a couple of miles over this way and in between this humongous gargant like football field plus size object comes out of the water, dripping water, flying saucer, football field." That's what he wrote. And we're watching it drip water. we're kind of blown away and it just zips off. It's gone. Now, how do you investigate that? It's almost impossible. So, Peter Davenport wrote as an addendum to this case. He said, I spoke with the witness on the phone. Peter will do that sometimes. He said, "I found him to be highly credible, highly this and that." And like apparently this was a very well spoken, believable individual. Peter found him credible. That's really all that we have on this, but it's pretty interesting story and I I tend I mean I read the account and that's one of the cases that goes into the third volume of my studying. Did that corroborate any other accounts? Were there any other similar accounts with football fields? Really? Yeah. Also, not just us, but you got UFO cases of gargantuaniz objects that have been reported over over the years. You wonder like what are they doing? It's like a small city, you know? It's the best place to hide. It really is. the oceans are. Yeah. You know, there's a a really great guy uh named Dr. Kevin New out there. He teaches I've heard of that name. Yeah. Yeah. Kevin's a really good man. He teaches at Albany and in New York State. I think he's on our list, Steve. He's coming on the podcast. Is he really? Yeah, he's good, good, good. Shout out to Kevin. Well, yeah, he um he made a really uh a really good insight on this and he just said, "Look, you know, look at the ocean." So, a lot of things about it. First of all, it's non-compressible. In other words, the pressure is constant. So that could be that could be helpful. It's it's certainly a protective like if you are from a place where maybe our solar radiation is not necessarily the right thing for you. You come from somewhere else, the ocean is a protective place for that. It's uh temperature variations are far less in the ocean than they would be above the ocean. and a lot of other things. He said, you know, there's a lot of good reasons to if you are from somewhere else. What if you are from a water, right, society? Sure. Well, the oceans might be feel like home. So, there are good reasons. And then, of course, there's the guys are just littered with airplanes. So, there that's there's that. Yeah. And and if you if you are interested in these human creatures, well, you know that they live on the land, so they might hang out in the ocean, stay out of the way. So there's good reasons that the oceans would be providing you have the technology to do it. But if you've got that then sure why not. The uh you asked for hotspots so I'll answer that. One is Puerto Rico and particularly I think I think uh all around Puerto Rico really but especially the the east west and northern coasts. The southern coast. Yeah. But I think I just haven't found as many. But along the um uh you get like northwest Auadia man. Um or you go out to the east uh the the US Navy's got a big presence at place called Roosevelt Roads there facing Vie Island. There's a lot of activity there. But north of the island you've got the great Puerto Rico trench which goes almost 30,000 ft down. It's like it's super deep and we cannot we can't get down there. But there are I'm sorry. How deep did you say it was? Uh about 20 28 29,000 feet I think maybe close to 30,000 feet. So you're talking you find a map almost six miles down. It's it's not quite as deep as the Mariana Trench in the Pacific but it's you know close and it's quite large several hundred miles. So you have um there are a number of pretty good cases from that area. He's showing pulling something up. And who um who is reporting these cases in Auadia or around northern Puerto Rico? Aguadia. Yeah, that's not exactly at the trench, but it's uh you know, not that far from it, I guess. Right. Or around this area roughly. The cases go uh good Puerto Rico trench cases go back to the early 60s that I found. Maybe even in the 50s, but they really start to collect in the 60s, early 1960s. Uh gosh, there's some good Auadia cases from uh the 70s and the 80s and the 90s and the 2000s. Like they they've got a throughout. There's quite a few interesting ones. There's a picture. Click on that. Puerto Rico the Puerto Rico trench. Go to that one to the left over there. Top left. Yeah, right there. Blow that up so I can see it. Oh wow. Tilted. So that's that is on Is that northeast, south? Is that oriented the right way or is that reverse? It's It's northern plate is over here. Yeah. Ah, so that north is to the right. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. And that would mean that Auadia is where? On the top left. Top top right, excuse me. Top right. Okay, I see. Where you got it? Yeah, that gets really deep right there. Wow. Yeah, it's it's super super extremely deep. Are there military people that are reporting any of this stuff? Yes. Yes, absolutely. Uh well, reporting is a hard way to put it. So years after the fact Mhm. it comes these stories will come out you know in in variety of ways. Yeah. So Puerto Rico is one hot spot. Uh we hear a lot of talk about California's Catalina Island. Oh yes. Near LA there. That absolutely the entire uh Atlantic seabboard of the United States going into Canada. Uh Florida where we are is extremely very very active on all sides of the peninsula. Florida. Yeah. Absolutely. But going all the way up the eastern US coast. But then that's See, here's the problem with this. So USOS just like UFOs or UAP now. It's very US dominated in terms of reporting. Americans report this stuff way more seems. Well, we have better reporting infrastructure. We've got MUON and we've got the National UFO Reporting Center. And so we're able to get these other regions of the world. I don't really think that they have the the same infrastructure for collecting these cases. It's hard. Now, there are some are Italy, the Italian researchers have collected a lot. They do a lot of very good work out there. Um um and you get some good cases out by Norway and Britain. Absolutely. What about South America? Yeah, South America there's good. I I mean I would have tended to think I'd find more because I you just you kind of like know there's a lot of activity going on in South America and there's a decent number of USO cases. Yeah. So down by Buenos Cyrus and Argentina also all along Brazil. Brazil's got a lot Brazil's got a crazy history just in general of UFOs. Yes. Absolutely. I recently learned about that uh that Jacqu Valet book where there was like a massacre down there. Polaris. Yeah. Yes. at the Amazon um the Delta re reaching out to the Atlantic Ocean. Wow. In the late '7s. Yes. Yes. Yes. Um and there's a lot of those that are genuine USO cases. So, uh many of those were seen in the water coming out of the water entering the water. That's an incredibly ecologically important area part of this world. I mean, it's it's the most massive amount of water flow I think going into any ocean on the planet. The Amazon River. Yeah. Out of the Amazon. It's massive. Uh this this is incredibly ecologically important and rich like estuary where you've got um it's very it's just very important. So maybe there's part of that that's going on. Maybe they're interested in that. Yeah. Um but anyway, yeah, there were some cases in the late '7s there where people were uh killed and and severely injured uh by these objects. And that that definitely appears to be the case. Yeah, it was a lot. It seemed like the way it was described to me was that there was like a it seemed like a a slaughter of people or a lot a lot of people being being murdered and not in a kind way by something. Yeah. And in fact, there are claims that this type of thing goes on to this day. Not necessarily in that specific region, but other parts of South America. I have really I have I have heard. How recently? Like quite recently. Uh there's a gentleman I know named Tim Alberino. I really like Tim. Uh he went down where the hell was he? Was it Peru? Maybe. Anyway, just in the last few years, some very bizarre cases of uh like human mutilation type cases um that he was looking into. Have to I I I wish I could. And these are with these are with I wish I could remember this a little bit better than I do. Are these with um indigenous people or are these with sophist like like like uh English speakaking uh indigenous not living completely indigenous lifestyles but you know very kind of uh like rural Yeah. South American type. Yeah. Yeah. I mean they have some technology so they're not they're not uncontacted tribes. No. But they are uh Wow. They live a more basic kind of a life than than we might hear with technology. And they describe did were there any details to like who was responsible for this or like what their what their descriptions were of who was doing this stuff? Well, there's you know Tracy's in the next room. She could probably jump in on this better than I could. Uh but I'll just say that uh there's reason to wonder that this was a human operation going on. That is not necessarily an alien thing. that this could be some kind of really uh like a diabolical covert op type of a thing happening possibly. I I I don't want to say much more because I I'm afraid I'm going to say something that's not accurate. Oh, okay. I see. Um but yeah, this is look, this is a subject where I think I you know, I started this 30 years ago thinking I'm going to go down this rabbit hole for a couple of months and here you are like it just opens up uh all of these fascinating and sometimes disturbing possibilities that are out there. You know, out of all the USO cases that you went over, which one was it, were there any that stuck out to you or that Many really quite a few that I think are just amazing. What? I can I can throw out a couple for you. Throw a couple. Also, I I do want to I I want to know more about that 1717 case. Yeah, I'll tell you that right now. That's right off the coast of Martineique. That's in the Caribbean. Okay. So, it's not that far from where we are here. We're in Florida. uh the name of the captain. I cannot recall his name. Chevalier something. Uh he wrote in his log. This is so there this is at um it's after midnight so it's dark. Uh there was I I looked into this. There was like a half moon out. So there was some light that was available. And what he claimed to have seen uh was a a vertical orientation like a like a rod. he said was like a a mass of a ship. So like you I envision like a a straight perpendicular rod of some sort but above the water uh moving along with his ship. It's not the best case but it it's not the worst. Like it's it was I decided to include it because he wrote it in a very matterof fact way. It was like 177 1717. Wow. Yeah. This is way before submarines obviously. Uh absolutely. and uh the 18th century which that is part of there. I don't there's not many that I have found. There's an interesting one off the coast of southern France I think from 1740. That's kind of interesting. And then there's one from a river a little small river in Scotland in 17 uh 67. And I think that might be it for the 18 only like a couple of cases. it really starts going. The first really good one that I just was kind of really taken by took place in 1825 and this was on a British vessel where they had just returned from Hawaii. In fact, uh well, there's there's a lot of interesting stories going on here, but they were coming back from Hawaii and they were going down the Pacific uh and they were going to end up in Chile. Okay. So, they were down by uh the Cook Islands. So, it's like way down in the south part of this Pacific, the Pacific Ocean. And it's 3:30 in the morning. The ships uh there was a naturalist aboard the ship. I think of like in the movie Master and Commander. They, you know, the buddy of uh Russell Crowe, the captain was this naturalist uh that they had aboard the ship and it's around the same time period. So, I'm thinking something like that. He writes in his log is 1825. His name was Andrew Bloxom. We've got his name. His his um book is published. You can find the PDF online. I have a link to it from my book. And he said, "Yeah, 3:30 the uh the watch on the ship reported a spherical object emerging from the ocean." He said it was like uh it looked like a red cannon shot coming out of the water. So, it was like a deep orange type of a color. Wow. But incredibly bright. He said it was so bright and he literally said you could pick a pin off the deck. It lifted up uh to a certain elevation and then went back down into the water and then came up a second time and then went back into the water. Now, you know, how many naturalistic explanations can you think of that can account for this? I can't think of any. And Bloxom writes this in a very straightforward way. I mean, you read the rest of his diaries. I read some of it. I mean, he was clearly a very uh meticulous, very rational man and uh very intelligent guy. And this just this one bizarre entry in his in his journal from August 12th, 1825. That's a heck of a case. And I thought that's like the first really really cool case. Do you remember how close or how far they were from land? They were off the Cook Islands. So those are I don't know how close they were to that. They were I I don't think they were close to land. I think they were out there out in the ocean. I don't know exactly. So he said, you know, and there's some other good ones from the 19. There's one from uh is he what's that there? I I found the story block Sam with a with an X. Where is it? I just found it. Oh, you got it. Yeah. Well, this is the story. Good. Good deal. Yeah. Any What does it got? You got illustrations or what? Yeah, I think this is the illustration of that event. Oh. Or at least it's included with the story. Oh, okay. Looks like an iceberg behind it, right? Yeah. That they weren't by icebergs. Yeah. Cook Islands. There wouldn't have been icebergs. No, but that's the name Andrew Bloxom right there. Interesting. Yeah. The HMS Blonde. Correct. That's the ship. God. And what year again? 18 25. 25. Yeah. Wow. And what was the size of the thing? Do they I He you know I don't think he was a direct witness. I think he was reporting what the night watch reported. So there's that. So he's not a direct witness. So okay, you can take that away from him. Okay. But they um I don't know if they had a really good size estimate. I I get the impression it was kind of large. I mean it was noticeable. It was very bright. Lit up the deck of the ship. by the way. So, fast forward about 150 years to 1971. Okay, this is going into my next volume and uh the USS John F. Kennedy aircraft carrier. So, is near Puerto Rico just saying uh they had just they were uh just finished what were called car quals carrier qualifications. So they had done this is a very involved series of uh exercises and they had just completed that it's 8:30 July 2nd 1971 and the man operating communications and we have his name he he in fact uh reported this to Steven Greer 25 years ago and it's it's in Greer's book disclosure which he wrote back then and he his name is James Cop with a K and he also reported this to a couple of other um websites uh at the time. So he's operating communications on the J the JFK carrier. Mhm. 8:30 at night and he says suddenly all of the communication he he discussed the the way the communications on the ship were. He said incoming and outgoing. He said suddenly everything was just gibberish. Everything coming in was just garbled messages. He's like what what's going on here? And then he hears, I'm laughing, but it's really, it's kind of not that funny. He hears on the intercom someone screaming, "It's God. It's the end of the world." So, he's thinking, "What is going on?" He goes, he's able to go out and look and he sees almost what is described in in Bloxom's account from 1825. He sees a glowing orange sphere hovering above or near the JFK. He said it gave off about half the strength of sunlight. So, it's kind of bright. That's true. And uh there there are sailors who were having a really difficult time emotionally with this. Uh one he said later definitely had to be sedated in some way or another and whatever. So he's watching this for maybe half a minute, not long. And then the ship goes to battle stations, general quarters. So they've all got to go. So he has to go back to his uh communication station where he says for the next uh 20 25 minutes uh the ship was on general quarters and the communications were just down. And he also uh stated that he believed that the weapons like aircraft like um I think what do they have F4s they were not operational. So the aircraft would not fly or weapons would not operate. So anyway, I I mentioned this because that glowing spherical object, I mean, to me, it's almost it's seems like it could have been identical to the one from the 1820s and you get this same type of glowing globular sphere. Wow. Yeah. Like what is that? Right. What is that? I wonder how many of them there are. You know, because like the most the the first one that I ever heard about was the Tic Tac. Yeah. And that thing was like zooming around, zipping around, and and uh I think I think there's a good chance there was something below the water there, too. Oh, you think there was a bigger ship that it came out of or something like that? I think so. Yeah, there's talk about that and it's not 100% confirmed, but that's what I I think is probably the case. But yeah, well, we the Tic Tac's a great case for sure. Absolutely. For sure. Um, I mean that one's like apparently it's documented on all of his uh his radar, right? Even though it hasn't been released. Well, yeah, there's and there's a lot of good witnesses for that. Um Kevin Day, who operated the radar aboard the USS Princeton, who's a very decent man, is a friend of friend of ours, uh was there and uh has talked about this in great detail. And of course we have David Fraver's testimony and and um um number of the other witnesses now have come out um who have have discussed it. So I I don't think that we have any doubt that something very very unusual happened there for sure of extremely high order of intelligence as well. I mean, anything that can appear at the what's called the cap the cap point before you get there, they get there. Uh, it's it's like time travel. Some Well, Putoff called it space-time metric engineering. Maybe that's what they're doing. Wow. Uh, in some way San Diego, right? That's not anywhere near Catalina. It's off the coast of that happened off the coast of lower Baja California. Oh, that was in near Baja California, I think. Yeah. a little south, probably south uh west of San Diego, I think. Okay. Not not that far, you know? Right. But off out out out there in the Pacific. I have There's a lot of crazy stuff out in the ocean. I have a friend who lives in Tijuana and he says there's all kinds of like UFO stuff going on out there, especially like in the W like USO type stuff and stuff that you really don't hear about in like the media in the US. Yeah, I I think that there's a lot of anecdotal information in Mexico. I have u you know we spoke to uh a couple of years ago a gentleman who had an interesting USO uh account uh off the Yucatan part of it you know on the other side. Oh really? But yeah I think I think I don't think they get reported officially. So they're just like the stories are floating around there as it were. and uh how I I have no doubt there's far more cases that are connected to Mexico than we probably than I have been able to find. I still I very much believe that the significant portion of this phenomenon is from non-human intelligence. The reason I believe that is I look at the earliest history of this uh particularly the ear like post World War II but even there are some very I would say good not perfect but good accounts from prior to World War II that are worth looking at as well. And so when you look at some of these early cases and then particularly when you read uh the declassified documents that I mentioned earlier that are available, it's hard for me to square that with a secret US black budget project. It just doesn't because because all the intelligence officers that we know of at the time in the ' 40s were looking into this and there just is there's nothing that I have seen that really make even you mentioned Joseph Farrell's work. Yeah. Were we on camera when we talked about Joe? I can't where were we, Steve? I don't remember. I Well, anyway, we were talking about Joseph Frell before this thing started and um and I'm a friend of Joe's and I respect and admire his work a lot, but I don't even think that he has made a clear-cut case that it's definitely all like, you know, third Reich Tech and all of that. I mean, there's definitely the Horton Brothers, which was or Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's the Horton brothers and uh and I think now I think we're seeing more and more support for the idea of a 1933 Italian recovery. Italian. Mhm. This is I think Grush talked about this, right? Grush talked about it. Malmrim Malmgrren in his interview with Jesse Michaels and Eric Davis in his congressional briefing talked about it. So we're seeing all these different uh perspectives coming in on this. Uh the real man who researched this is an Italian researcher named Roberto Pinati who looked at a lot of the original documents that do exist in Italian from 1933. And um interesting. So I think yes like this goes back farther in time than a lot of the American researchers like because we're so American centered like Roswell it all starts there. Yeah. Uh, no, no, I think there's even in the US there were prior cases to Roswell, but certainly this 1933 case. So, you you think the the fact that these cases or crash recoveries, retrievals, whatever you want to call them, they go back so far earlier than the the 1940s. You think that points to it being of non-human origin just because of how advanced it was and how early it was? Yeah, I I think so. That's what I that's what I believe in. And where where do you think they would have come from? I know we're being super speculative here. I'm just saying like if you I would say another planet. Another planet or or uh there's a couple of different ways to look at this. So, you know, Haluto off wrote a very interesting paper a number of years ago on uh ultraterrestrials this concept and it's a it's very interesting paper. I highly recommend people read it. And and I think his take and he just mentioned this the other day in his interview, but maybe there's been a group that's been here a long time that originally comes from elsewhere. They've set up a shop in some manner, which I think is a total totally possible. I would I would imagine that the extraterrestrial hypothesis actually still makes more sense to me than anything else. I mean, we can get attracted to interdimensional theories, but does anyone actually even understand what another dimension would be? Like, how does that work? How do they materialize in our I don't maybe it's it's possible, but I don't really understand how that's possible. I can understand how it could be possible even despite the vast distances to go interstellar if you can manipulate spaceime in some way, bending spaceime. We have math for that. Gan Miguel Alubier in the 90s apparently came up with some version of warp drive mathematically. The problem is finding the amount of energy. Yeah. Sufficient to do it. But same thing with I think that's the same thing with time travel, right? I think so. Yeah. You know, so I love I love Michael Master's time travel theory. Uh yeah, I don't know if I've I'm on top of that one. So maybe you can you can educate me. But uh but I guess I'll just say I think the fact that they come from another place still makes the most sense to me. Uh the fact that we would be of interest makes a lot of sense to me. The fact that Earth would be a very interesting place also makes a lot of sense to me. I think uh all of that makes perfect sense that if you have the ability if you've achieved a technological capability to detect advanced life elsewhere which I don't see that as impossible at all. Um I mean we're already looking at exoplanetary systems and looking for life signatures and we just started with this business. So if you've been doing this for a thousand years or more um maybe you can detect consciousness si you know you can go we talked about remote viewing. Yeah. Could they actually have the ability to detect advanced consciousness? I don't know. Maybe they can. Or maybe there are other technologies that we just haven't envisioned. So, they could find us and then could they get to us? Yeah, probably. I don't see why not. Uh, at least in theory, I think it could be entirely possible. And we would be interesting because a there could be a lot of life in this universe. But how common really would planets like ours be? We have we're in the Goldilock zone, but it takes a lot more than that, right? We have the moon is in the We have the moon. Incredible. Which is uh it's it's it's uh what's the word? It's the perfect terraforming device. It's one I think it's 120th the size of the sun and 120th the distance from the sun. I think I'm getting that math right. Oh, it's a lot less than 120th the size. Maybe maybe I'm getting that math wrong, Steve. Maybe you can correct me with the the uh the fractions there. Anyways, the fractions are exact. The exact uh size comparison to the sun and the exact distance from the sun is sun is equal. So, it creates that perfect eclipse. And so, that makes Yeah, that's actually that's an amazing thing if that's if if that's a significant part. The fact that it's a stabilizer of our environment is very significant. Uh it's it's always got one side turned to the earth. That's I'm can't remember the word for that, but that could be significant. Totally locked. Yeah. Thank you, Steve. just the fractions of the distance, the distance ratio and the size ratio. Find that and then it is you know it is the perfect terraforming device for us and uh yeah it's sun size and distance ratio. There you go. You can figure that out. I'll let you let us know. That's your homework assignment. But but but we have we also have water and land. So we but we're not completely covered in water either. So we have enough water for life to evolve in the water. But then we have enough land out of the water that life can crawl up and evolve on land. You know, I mean, that's kind of an interesting thing right there. And we've had enough uh stability over Mhm. hundreds of millions of years that we can allow complex life to develop online. And I mean, yeah, that's that can't be very common. Now, the universe is big enough that you could think, all right, maybe one out of a million systems might have something like this or whatever it is, and that could still be enough to develop um advanced life. And which I think I I've come to believe, I'm not a I'm not a expert in this at all, but I I tend to think that life anywhere is going naturally to want to increase its complexity. uh just because life competes with other life for resources and energy and food and that intelligence is one necessary evolutionary adaptation that would be useful for any life form and not just humans. Dinosaurs were intelligent. Hell, not not maybe compared to us, but compared to previous life forms, they probably were. Intelligence is always increasing. Yes. And uh you know, our body plan just allowed us to hit the sweet spot. We develop these hands that can do things and manipulate our environment and that further increase our intelligence I believe. So I think I think life naturally will do that given the proper conditions right and I'm going to guess that you know in enough parts of the universe those conditions have existed so that you then develop life and then it gets to the the critical point where it develops its own ability to kind of manage itself which we're maybe kind of doing and we're developing art you know strong AI and uh all the other technologies that'll go along with it nanotech and who the hell knows what quantum computing and what kind of crazy diabolical mixture will come out of all of that. And I think that that's probably what what other life forms have done because I I suspect that that what life what intelligent life will do is it is guided by the requirements of constantly developing that intelligence. In other words, uh it's not about like our society isn't about the human race anymore. It's really about meeting the needs of the demands of a highly integrated, digitally advanced, artificially intelligent system of which we are now just a part. like we think it's working for us, but I think we're serving the system and we're serving the system that is becoming ever more complex and and that intelligence will just kind of take off on its own because I think it's the intelligence that's the dominant factor, not necessarily our biological contribution to it. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if anyone actually ever thinks that or if I'm the only person, but this is what I I've come to believe like we serve we serve the system that we have helped to create. But really, we're just we are simply actors or we're just we're the caterpillar. Yeah. We're like the servants of of what high intelligence demands and we we're that's what we're doing. What do you think we look like? What do you think human beings or what comes out of human beings ends up being in like 50 to 100 years? Well, it all depends on, you know, because all that we do is we adapt to the environments that we live in. And we are now radically changing our own environment uh technologically in in all different ways. And so clearly you're seeing uh probably a speeding up of of human evolution is probably happening. I think it is right. Uh experts would be better able to say this than me, but I think it's quite I mean look, evenology, right? Yeah. In the last 10,000 years, we're not the same as we were back then. So, uh and we've domesticated ourselves. It's just like you look at domesticated sheep as opposed to wild sheep, well domesticated humans as opposed to wild humans before we started settling in uh large communities and societies roughly 10,000 years ago. So, we're we're going on a path. So what we're going to look like uh the the you know the problem with our future is that every every new technological leap you make whether it's mastering the use of fire or stone tools or now working it you know getting to AGI and whatever else we're going to get to means that you become dependent on that for your species survival like honestly like once we've had fire for like couple hundred thousand years, right? It would be very difficult to probably for those people to survive without it. Yes. Because you become dependent on it. And then not only that, but the fact that you have fire means you have to develop all of these other technologies because we have to maintain the fire, we have to protect the fire, we have to uh find and and process the right kinds of wood. Like all of that that that prompts further intellectual development. Same with stone tools and all that. So once you develop that, you have to maintain it. And now we're so so deeply embedded in our technology. Can you imagine? You know, Spain and Portugal just went without electricity for 5 hours last week. Five. I have a sister who lives in Seville and uh trust me, I live in Florida. I had to go through a lot of hurricanes and Exactly. So, but they were like they were freaking out, man. They were not h they were not happy. So, imagine if we had to go without electric. Forget internet, just electricity. Mhm. Yeah, it sucks. Well, it's even worse for a week, two weeks, a month, forever. It would suck. It It would It would more than suck because most people would probably not live. you know, going back to this, you know, this technology conversation and the evolution of human beings, uh, is really it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently and it really came, it was interesting because I think Hal and Rogan touched on it a little bit on their conversation, but, you know, one of the ideas that I've been throwing around is the idea of like this this ESP telekinesis having these senses that are not apparent in everybody. body, but they're kind of like extra. Some people have have them more than other people. And especially when it comes to things like remote viewing and ESP. So like ancient human beings, right, before we had the development of language, before we had the technology to record memories externally and you know when we constantly were uh trying to avoid predators to stay alive. Yeah. And before before we had anything like I'm sure we had some sort of extra senses that have atrophied since we've developed language since we've developed computers. We don't have to memorize [ __ ] anymore. Everything's on a computer or iPhone. You know what I mean? Absolutely. So I feel like that is radically we have senses that are radically have been diminished diminished and atrophied over millennia. My wife and I talk about this a lot. This is like our one of our pet theories that we've been uh hashing around for a couple of years. Excuse me. I totally believe that that's the case. We actually our uh the brain capacity of the human being today is less than it was among um our ancestors even more than 10,000 years ago. I think it's like the amount of a golf ball or no more than that. I think uh maybe a baseball amount of of brain we have less. We have we have a little bit less. That doesn't mean that we're less intelligent. It just means that domestication has enabled us to need less because the brain's expensive. I mean, in terms of energy, like it's it's not free. And so, you you have to have a reason for it. It's got to provide an evolutionary benefit for you to use it. And uh very likely I think that you're right. I think that's true. Like we've probably atrophied. Um, and what that of course this is, this is material that I'm just barely I shouldn't even really talk about, but you hear people talking about microtubules and the brain and the ability to access quantum information in some way. And I'm probably saying this wrong in countless ways, but but essentially that we have the capacity to perceive some various forms of non-locality. you know, things that are far away that logically you wouldn't think we're able to perceive, but hell, remote viewing proves that you can. And I think uh it's a fair theory or a fair notion that our ancestors did a better job at this than we do. M and another thing about Okay, so so we were just talking about how like there's other Goldilocks planets and there might be there there definitely are we know of that are really really far away, but like we are so rare in this solar system. Um all the different species that exist on Earth, I think out of So this is kind of getting into what Mike Masters explained to me. He's a anthropologist and he was explaining to me there's over two million species of animals. I I didn't mean to interrupt you. Isn't he the one who um Am I getting my people mixed up? He came up with a paper about a year or two ago that got a lot of attention and I I should stop. I I'm probably getting it wrong. Anyway, keep going, please. Yeah. Yeah. So, he's an anthropologist and he and his and he's wrote a bunch of books on on uh his his I think his it's not his most recent one, but one of them is called the extraterrestrial model. And he basically explains, you know, having a background in in this stuff and evolution is that there's 200 species of cat. There's 200 or 2 million cataloged species on planet earth. Out of the two million, 20 of them are hominids. Out of the 20 hominids, we are the ones that developed technology that was able to escape the earth. So we are like 0.1% of all species human beings on earth. So that is extremely rare for earth which is an extremely rare planet being such a you know having the moon the way it is being this having so much water and land being inhabitable teaming with life. So now let's go look at all the other Goldilocks planets that we know of that are so far away. How how many of them have the same gravity, the same atmosphere, the same how many of them are water worlds or not? And what is the likelihood that those beings that evolve on that planet, that Goldilocks planet, are going to be exactly like the 00001%, right, that ended up being human beings on this planet. So he's like basically the case he made was it's virtually impossible impossible for them to have two arms two two legs upright walking homminist there I disagree I I disagree with that I think respectfully because I'm I'm sure he knows what he's talking about but no I think that our body plan is probably not unique to us and I think if you're going to again I think because what life does life evolves and life adapts and so if the necessary thing that you have to have is an ecosystem that can support enough diversity of life for this to happen. And yes, you need water and you need land. You need both. And so it's going to be very rare. Like I completely agree with all of that. I think that's entirely right. But the fact that our body plan is an anomaly. I don't agree with that. I think our body plan is probably I I don't really, you know, do we really truly understand what is the mechanism of evolution? What is it really? Is it truly just random mutation or is there something else going on? I I'm not going to pretend that I have that answer, but I think that somehow life didn't Jeff Goldlum say this in Jurassic Park. Life finds a way. And I think that life does find a way through adaptation, through the need for survival. And look, yeah, but like this is if you're going to engage in planetary domination of any capacity, honestly, I think this plan, this body plan of ours might just be the best way to do it because what you need is an ability to manipulate your environment. That's key. And so hands and fingers are perfect for manipulating environment. What's better than that? I don't know of anything that's been better. Uh and then the thing is once our, you know, oropithesine distant ancestors of 4 million years ago or 3 million years ago, they realized, oh, I can break this stone. Wow, this is really useful. So that encourages further intellectual development. Just just even napping stones, it's like that's a skill. So you're working cognitively here. And so I think uh adaptations I don't think it's impossible that life would form adaptations similar to our own uh that you would have humanoid uh beings in other that develop that way in other planets. You know, I I just think that uh I remember as a kid reading like what certain scientists thought like life elsewhere would look like and some of those ideas were kind of kind of goofy when I look at them now and I don't think they make a lot of sense because a body has to be efficient and it's got to and so you're looking at all of these different factors that go into it and it seems to me that bipeedal standing upright with a couple of extra hands to do your job like that's really that's quite useful and I could imagine that happening elsewhere. What do you got, Steve? Oh, the crab species convergence. Yeah, it's similar to what he was talking about. Like you have five different species that have independently grown crablike bodies. That's just what works in the ocean for little creatures like that. Independently unrelated. Yeah. It's convergent evolution. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um which means basically species that have are not related to each other can due to the environments that they live in develop very similar uh Yeah. like you know bats can fly as well as insects can fly and birds and that type of thing. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um when I brought this up to Greer, he was he was explaining to me he believes it has something to do with morphic resonance. This theory by uh Robert Sheldrake to win theirs. It's like some sort of a quantum idea. It's a it's a quantum theory essentially. So, I guess one of the examples that Sheldre used was this a monkey on one side of the world discovers some sort of technology, figures out how to crack a crack some a coconut open with a rock or whatever. And at the same time, this quantum in this quantum field, the monkeys on the opposite side of the world figure out the same thing. So, he thinks that might tie into evolution between planets. He said, "This isn't just on on Earth." Yeah. Hey, I I' I'd entertain that. I mean uh you know there's the secret life of plants which came out over 50 years ago which talks about like there's all different ways uh we know that we know that uh fungi under the ground are somehow I don't understand it can be a means of communication among plants right all right so how does that work I don't know so there something like that could sure the interpretation of what happened with Paul Benowitz is it's That is still an open question in my opinion. Oh, really? Well, to the extent that what why why was Air Force Office of Special Investigations or CIA possibly or any of these other groups going after Paul Benowitz to screw with his head? They were like uh a great book on this was done by Greg Bishop called Project Beta. Project Beta. Yeah. It's it's a very fine book. I don't fully agree with every conclusion that Greg has, but he did a really excellent job and he needs uh he deserves kudos for that. But the the basic question is what? So Paul, for people who don't know this, Paul Benowitz was a uh kind of a a small US defense contractor in the 1970s. He uh lived right near Kirtland Air Force Base in uh New Mexico. And he's able to see uh and by he's by the Manzano weapon storage area there, I think. trying to remember this now. Anyway, so he's watching things going on over there, like bizarre aerial activity, and he's got he's got sophisticated tracking information equipment and things like this to to look at it, and he's convinced that there are flying saucers or something like that happening. And he's a good patriotic American. He literally wrote to President Reagan uh after 1981 about this. Wow. Like saying, "You've got to get on top of it." like and so he was becoming uh a hassle and a potential security risk for the people over at Kirtland whatever they were doing. So Greg argued and I cannot remember what uh the Magicman documentary actually argued here. I think the claim was that essentially like 30,000 foot view is that he was a conduit of disinformation in the UFO community to poison the well of the UFO community because they knew there were Soviet spies there. Yeah, that well that's potential. Okay. U that's what I took from it. There's definitely espionage and there's definitely the attempt to muddy the waters of the UFO community. But the question is what was Paul Benowitz actually observing? So was he observing um advanced US defense systems that were then being tested or was he seeing something more than that? And and I tend to think that maybe a little bit of both. I don't think it was all just uh uh that they were only protecting their own tech. I guess that's my own position. I think I think Benowitz was seeing things that were not not all ours. And I only say that because when first of all there were a number of other people who are associated with this who firmly believed he was seeing more than that. But also when you look at the the uh history of violations of sensitive airspace of US bases across the entire US, this is an old story. So it's not a unique thing to Kirtland. something that and and through the 1940s and 50s and 60s and 70s and 80s that was all still happening. It never stopped. And so I think it's very premature to just dismiss it all as saying he was only looking at our own secret tech. I I actually don't believe that. Um but the fact that they went in and screwed with him and convinced him that it was aliens and allowed him to convince himself. That's what Richard Dodie would say. And Richard Dodie was very much involved in all of that. Wasn't there a part of that documentary where they claimed the NSA moved in across the street and was beaming information into his house saying that the aliens were trying to comm or they were aliens trying to communicate with him. They were coming to Earth cuz their planet ran out of water. They're going to be here in 15 years or something. Is that Magic Men? I actually can't remember that. So that that's that's what I remember from the Magic Man documentary. Maybe. Yeah. I you know, maybe. Yeah. And then there was the whole part about the cattle mutilation which was wild. You know how they were doing the underground testing for they were mining. Uh is this a Mna Hansen case? Is that there was a all of this was going on at this time. So there were cattle mutilations happening all in the mid and late 70s out in the Midwest and out in the Rockies and uh and Benowitz Benowitz got like really really really deep into this that is for sure. and uh he hooked up with uh University of Wyoming Leo Sprinkle who used to do uh hypnotic regressions at people and there was a woman her name was MNA Hansen and she was uh God I can't remember did she she witnessed a cattle mutilation I think cattle being lifted up but she was also uh supposedly taken to an underground facility herself and Leo Sprinkle did the regression and Benowitz I I think was there and they all got really deep into this and Benitz eventually was uh committed for at least briefly for psychiatric evaluation like in the late ' 80s. It this really got to him. It really messed him up and uh it got seriously damaged his life. It's very sad and and it does seem like he was being used for disinformation. Yes, I think that's absolutely true. And and um I wrote about this in one of my books, my second volume of history uh called UFOs in the National Security State. And my my feeling was you look at the the mid and late '7s and two important things were happening to threaten the secrecy of the UFO subject at that time. One was as we mentioned the release of documents through freedom of information. This was a new thing. This had never happened before. You know, in the 50s and 60s, the US Air Force could say, "We don't know anything about these UFOs. I mean, it's a little bit uh it's obviously people are making mistaken assumptions and and things like this, but we're not really into that. We have this Project Blue Book and we're not really finding any evidence of aliens, and they could get away with that until in the late '7s researchers were petitioning the government for documents pertaining to UFOs. And holy cow, like they got a lot of them proving that the Air Force was lying. They were lying through their teeth for years. And so that was one thing. So the Freedom of Information Act was a threat to the secrecy. And if you're if you're on the other side of that trying to guard the secrets, you have to be thinking, what is our exposure here? What do we have to worry about? Is if they shake the tree enough, is something going to fall out of that tree that's really compromising? Right? like that's like what came out was compromising enough but anything worse. So that's one problem. The other problem was this was when UFO crash retrievals were starting to become a thing in researchers all in the late '7s. This all happened at once. Prong number one was FOYA. Prong number two is crash retrievals. And so we have like people like Stanton Freriedman researching Roswell for the first time and things like this. Uh but there were other crash retrievals that people were looking into and or revisiting. Uh there was a a researcher no longer around called Leonard Stringfield who back in the 70s and ' 80s was actively cultivating um ex- Air Force and ex-military people getting all kinds of stories about crash retrievals. It was it was kind of a first like no one was a magnet the way Stringfield was at that time. And so he started to publish his research bit by bit, you know, in these tiny little UFO journals that no one was reading, but they were coming out. And so again, if you're managing the secrecy and if there were crash retrievals, which it looks like there certainly were, you've got to be concerned like how long can this go before someone actually uncovers something that's truly compromising that we do not want out? And so the theory, and I think this is probably true, is you muddy the waters and you you um put out information that would sew the seed of doubt into documents. And this is one argument about the MJ12 documents that came out in the mid1 1980s. And it's possible that that's the case. And uh and then the the campaign against Paul Benowitz that we were just talking about could be part of that as well. This is like kind of the Empire Strikes Back. you know, you've got all of this uh all of these threats to the empire of secrecy and the late '7s, early 80s, they make the decision in the early 80s like let's um do something about that and which is the case like to this day new documents may come out and you've already got people saying is this real? Is this lies this info? It's amazing to watch. It's very effective. It's really a fact. I mean, so if they were doing if they were going to that extent with uh with Richard Dodie and Paul Benowitz in the it was the 80s that was happening. Yeah. If they were doing that in the '8s, imagine what they could what they have the ability to do now with the internet. It's it's it's highly sophisticated obviously and and very likely they've got smarter people than we do and uh they're probably many many steps ahead. I I think it's very tough to deal with them. Not impossible, but yeah, I mean it's and it's we're going beyond UFOs here or UAP. This is in a whole array of things. I have no doubt. But uh the UFO subject, which is the one that I'm most interested in, I think definitely uh you know, we're in an era now since 2017, New York Times and Politico, they do their articles at that time. And it kind of breaks open the space a little bit where people can talk about this a bit more without necessarily their careers being destroyed through ridicule. So, that's good. But to think then that uh the national security crowd is just going to walk away from the table and say, "Oh, yeah. Here you go. Here's all of our secrets. Yeah, sorry about that. We were wrong." No, that's not going to happen. There's too many far too many reasons to maintain this and to fight every step of the way. So, what I believe is happening in terms of all of this, like this has been an argument for almost a decade now. A lot of people it's like are we dealing with a covert op by the government to have a controlled and false release of uh UFO information to serve their needs or what I believe is we're we're looking at a factional struggle within that community where there are actually people who do believe in getting this information out to whatever extent they believe they want it out. I'm not sure if they even want it out fully themselves, but to some extent. But there's still the the secrecy group, if we can call them that, that is absolutely not resolved to that at all. Not not reconciled to that. And they will fight every step of the way.