#03 The CIA’s Psychic Spy: Joe McMoneagle’s Remote Viewing Adventures

I think this guy killed his own wife, but they get upset and they said, "Stick in your eye, pal. Can you track a spy here? Piece of cake." Okay, we'll just use a remote viewing to figure out how a UFO works. Okay, this Joe McMongle episode is one of the craziest episodes I think we might ever have. Joe, if you don't know who he is, he was agent in the CIA's psychic spy program. They picked him out of Vietnam because he survived so many deathdeying things that the CIA figured he must have some intuition. And so I first learned about Joe more than a year ago. And most notably on the Shawn Ryan show, he sat with him for about 6 hours and it was unbelievable. You're going to see that we got to sit with him for about 4 hours and we found out afterwards that actually he thought he knew when it was supposed to end and he thought we knew when it was supposed to end and so it sort of wrapped up in a way that we were like, well, I guess we should cut it off. you know, it's been a while because he's just running from thing to thing. And if you've listened to our other episode with Alan Evans, she's the CEO of the Monroe Institute. She kind of runs the Monroe Institute and Joe is like the star trainer at the Monroe Institute. It was just one of the most fascinating conversations. He's told some stories I've never heard before. And we really love diving in because one of the things that I really wanted to figure out is is he being truthful? Is he being honest? Right? Not because, you know, he's a reason to lie, but just these stories are so wild that you just you have to keep taking a closer and closer look because you've got to decide whether you believe him or not. And so, I'll say at the end of the day, I find him to be very, very truthful. And, you know, I I've seen most of the content about him online. He's always consistent. I've never seen him change his stories. And he just has so many of them. And also, when we're at the Monroe Institute, everyone is about love. It's not even that big of an organization. It's not like they have money as a huge driver in their organization actually. It seems like they're really trying to do something good for the world. It actually reminds me, you know, this touches on like telepathy tapes if you've got to take a look at those. But I think that he is quite unique and he has a lot of special gifts and so I think we have a lot to learn from him. So without further ado, here is the one and only Joe McMagle. What uh what sort of work was the last work he did? Well, I was Oh, I've been remote viewer for 38 years and um before that I was an intelligence officer. I spent most of the time overseas. So, if you work on something that's classified, do they ever let you know that it's declassified and you can talk about it or you have to assume you can't ever talk about it? Yeah, I wouldn't be sitting here otherwise. Okay. They the CIA said that remote viewing never worked. So they declassified the whole thing, which was a mistake. Yeah. Because uh like right now uh you know there's an unclassified museum at the National Security Agency and it wasn't too long ago if you said NSA or National Security Agency, you go to jail. And they they now have a museum. It's everything in the museum is one of a kind or they don't put it in there. And uh I'm in their museum. I'm a permanent display. Wow. My viewing. Wow. And they just took it out of the museum and they're creating a uh a virtual museum. So, they're adding almost all my stuff. And it's going to be online. You'll be able to access it from anywhere in the world. Cool. And when they started doing that, the CIA got upset and they said, "Stick in your eye, pal. You the ones that declassified it." Yeah. Right. So, yeah. They said it didn't work. It worked for, let's see, 16 14 other agencies. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, it worked for them, too, because we did hundreds of jobs for them over 20 years. For the NSA or the CIA? Both. Okay. Yeah. So, who did you like working with the the most? US Army. Okay. Uh, you know, they're they're they're all okay. There's a certain level of arrogance when the higher you get into the, you know, not the classified area, but the intelligence arena, you know, they have different levels of intelligence. Yeah. Now, they have a DNI. That's the person who is like in charge of all of it. And uh that person is usually politically chosen. So, they don't know anything about, right? Yeah. Hey, you could get people appointed to run operations who don't even believe in the tools that they're using. Yeah, that's right. That's crazy. That think it's all a bunch of hoie hoy. And uh it's it's kind of disturbing because when you're when you're out there risking your life sometimes, you'd like to know that they appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. But right now, I'm a uh a loser. That's right. Cuz I have to walk with a cane and I'm all busted up for my ears. But um it doesn't have an effect on us. You know, it's funny the you were just telling us about all the different stuff you've had with all the different joints and replacements and everything. And I've actually had I've I've wondered whether metal in the body affects any sort of like connection. It does. Yeah. Oh, I was going to ask if that what happens usually by the time people have the kind of metal I have in me, they're, you know, a couple years away from dying. Uh, but I've had this since uh [Music] 19 86. Okay. It it started in ' 68. So, I've been uh in unrelenting pain since 1975, maybe chronically. Oh, yeah. Big time. They tried to put me out of the army medically. And what I did is I uh I got a couple percoetses from my medic and joined the new recruits for their induction physical test and came out in the middle of the bell curve. Uhhuh. So they couldn't throw me out. Oh my gosh. They had to had to keep me. So, it was kind of funny because when when I hit the run at the end, uh, I did really well, but when I dropped to the ground, my right leg wouldn't stop running. It kept No way. Doing it. Service Lieutenant Colonel I knew came over and sat on my knee so nobody would see my leg running. Yeah. And then uh when it was all over, the surgeon came over and he said, "This is the onestar general uh Kimber Army Hospital. You're you're lucky." That's what he said. You're really lucky. He walked away cuz he's the only guy who wanted to medically retire me. And we had a threear running the base. And he said, "That's the one thing I can't do is I can't override a surgeon." Oh, see. So, saved you. And Yeah. So, then I took a a week's leave and signed myself privately to a hospital. Yeah. Yeah. How do you manage that pain? How do you manage chronic pain? Uh, well, let's see. Over the years, in the Yeah. mid 1990s I was uh on 70 milligrams of timereleas morphine for six hours for about a year. Okay. Um and I lost track of where I was most of the time. Yeah. So I got off of that and I went to the BA probably 3 years ago and I was on uh 80 milligrams of oxycontton and oxycodone. Yeah. Every four hours. And so I said, I can't do this anymore because I quality of life was gone. Totally. So they have a new uh a new pain pain drug, but what it is, it's it's for something else, but it's side effect affects the pain. So I went from decades of, you know, the 1 to 10 scale in the 7 to eight range, okay, to twos or less. Holy moly. So I'm comfortable now. That's great. When did when did that switch? Uh nine months ago. Oh, so this is recent. Oh, wow. Recent. So up until 9 months ago, you you wouldn't want to meet me. Yeah. Not a pleasant person to talk to cuz I was in pain. So much pain all the time. I had no idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was functional, but Sure. barely. You've got your second wind now. You Oh, yeah. Start moving around. Um, let's see. Oh, I just had my 79th birthday, so Happy birthday. I'm just getting the wind behind my sail. There we go. Yeah, I'm just getting started. Yeah. Get warmed up. Yeah. How did you um So, I found out about you well before Shawn Ryan, but then the the Shawn Ryan interview came out. It was six hours long and that I think was the longest podcast I'd ever listened to up to that point. Yeah. And I've heard it multiple times and it was it's just fascinating. Well, you know, he's a really good interviewer. He's very uh he doesn't like invade the conversation like a lot of a lot of interviewers have this sort of chip that they have to show their exquisite interrogation. They're good at and uh but he he's very laidback. He likes to pursue the information. So he probably got more out of me than most and uh just by talking that and I I have so much respect for Navy Seals. It's just a lot of my friends are Navy Seals, you know, two Commodores and the Navy Seals. So that and special forces and special operations and all that. What what people don't know is probably the toughest people on the planet are Delta Force. They they do jobs that you know it's almost impossibility all do really. Sure. I I've heard that too actually. Delta Force is like the Yeah. news bad news. Did you run into basically every special operations group in Vietnam? Was everybody floating around doing different? No, they they didn't actually a lot of people are not aware that Vietnam actually re didn't reinstitute but instituted for the first time a formal school for snipers. Uh they had snipers in the first world war, second world war, Korea and whatnot, but it was kind of a dishonorable thing to shoot somebody when you're not looking. Yeah. Really? Even by the Korean War. Well, I when I first got to Vietnam, uh the unit I was in, we shaved our heads in the Mohawks. Yeah. and uh carried a hatchet and a very long chrome blade and would scream a lot when we made contact and it frightened a lot of people which is a good thing. That's the the plan and uh they took it away from they took everything away from us. They said no that's against the Geneva Convention. You can't do that frighten people half to death when you're attack can't scare them when you kill while you kill them. Uh yeah, that's incredible. I was talking to a a man the last time I was at the hospital. He came over and sat next to me and I could tell immediately just by the way he was sitting he was a a veteran. So I said, "Are you a vet?" And he said, "Yeah." I said, "When the where were you? Were you ever in combat?" He said, "Oh yeah." Said, "Where?" He said, "Korea." in Korea was nasty. That was a nasty war. And I said, "Uh, so you're still here? That's a good thing." And he said, "Almost not." And I said, "Yeah." He said, he told me the story where it was so cold. He and his best friend were sharing a double sleeping bag. So, they're inside two sleeping bags. And he said they were so cold and frozen. They were in a bunker and he couldn't get out of the sleeping bags. Wow. And they got overrun and all the the unit took off uh abandon the hill they were on. So they're in this bunker and then they hear this uh the Chinese guys or North Koreans I guess outside the bunker. Hey GI, you still alive in there? And he said, "Yeah, come on out, you prisoner." And he says, "Come in and get us." No way. And they wouldn't come in the bunker. So they started throwing in grenades. And he said, "We started throwing them back out." And in a couple would come and out would go a couple. And couple went off inside the entry. And so said we were both wounded, but not seriously. And this went on for like an hour and a half. And it slowly petered off and then there was no more action and they didn't hear anything. And about two hours later they heard a voice and it was an American. We retook the hill. Are you guys still in there? Yeah. So they pulled him out and he says, "All around the outside of the bunker were dead dead Koreans." They killed themselves with their own grenades and some. And so I I looked at him. I said, "Yeah, that's right. I know you're still here." Said, "The best thing you've ever done in your life is having great grandchildren." There we go. Yeah. So we pass each other in the hall sometimes in the hospital. It's like That's right. I heard that it was known in uh in World War II uh the Americans were were very well known for throwing grenades farther and more accurate than those. Yeah, probably because we have a baseball history. That's right. Um but but they're like really heavy. You can you can damage your arm, your shoulder, your elbow. The problem with grenades is the quality control is not perfect. And you get the grenades in these round cans. And that's to try to prevent them from mis being mishandled. But you uh get the grenade out of the can and you always put it inside a button pocket or a velcro pocket because you don't want to catch it on a tree limb. And uh if you take the hang grenade and just tap it on a like a white handkerchief, you'll see little specks. The little specks is rust. The only thing on a grenade that rust is the pin. And in Vietnam, things would rust. Rust quick. Quickly. Yeah. Yeah. The other problem was you you try to explain to the younger people when you throw a grenade in a jungle the trees will throw it back at you. Yeah. More times than not. So, you know, they're just best left alone. Yeah. You can make booby traps with them or something, but Sure. throwing them isn't isn't really a good idea. Um Yeah. Um, so for maybe those who haven't seen some of the other podcasts you've been in, I it would be great to get a little bit of just your background on sort of your time in Vietnam and then moving in and you know, we don't have to spend a ton of time on it, but just for those who haven't seen spend, you know, my whole life in Vietnam. Yeah, that's fair. I saw parts of Laos and Cambodia as well. I was in uh when I first got to Vietnam, I was in a uh in a unit had about 400 people. It was a company, which that's impossible. It's a huge company. It was sort of thrown together. It was called the uh 330th radio recon unit. And so when I first got there, I operated a piece of equipment. It's uh what they call a short range radio direction finding. The first guy killed in Vietnam, a guy named Davis, was operating one of those. And uh he can't run with it because it takes five people to carry it. Yeah. And uh that's including the batteries and everything. and his uh the guys that were doing the work for him or South Vietnamese when they came under attack they disappeared and he ran out of bullets basically and was killed. There were only like five or six of these in existence. So when I got to Vietnam, I got to play with one. Okay. And uh two of the teams that went out with them, no one ever heard from them again. They just vanished. And uh to use this, it's called short range for a reason. You have to be really close. Mhm. And the problem with being really close is if they know you're in the their area of operation, their AO, they'll release dogs. Okay. a couple platoon will come out looking for you. So, you can't you got to be really quiet. Well, it's hard going through a jungle with like 180 lbs of equipment to be quiet, but you get it set up and then you have to move you uh you use the equipment, then you have to move right or left so many thousands of yards. That's difficult itself. And then uh that well there's some other problems with it. And so when it was my turn to take one out, I intended to bring my team back. So I put a thermite grenade on top of it and called it a battlefield loss. [Laughter] That's pretty great. The surviving one is uh in the museum at the National Fury. Oh, really? All right. Yeah. So, but I did a lot of things in Vietnam. Uh I was there for the Ted offensive. That's when everybody says we lost the war because they occupied 250 plus villages and stuff. The problem is within 3 days we had pushed them all out of the villages. BC were basically completely eradicated. the North Vietnamese were on the run and they were chased in the the mountains of Laos. So we were virtually on top of everything. And then uh in the north uh the man who planned that whole fiasco was told and I've seen the letters on this. There was a letter written from the Chinese premiere to the polipial bureau chief who I think at the time was a guy named General Kip. And they said that's the stupidest thing you ever did. If the Americans come one yard across the border, we're out of here. We're done and you're toast. Yeah. And then uh the Russians said the same thing. And uh so we should have crossed the border and they would have capitulated immediately, but we didn't. We just chased them into the mountains until we ran out of bullets and gasoline. Yeah. Right. Or diesel fuel. And uh the problem is Walter Kronhite said that we had lost the war and that just took the wind out of everything. Oh my gosh. So the message got was they shut everything down and I think it was a good thing though. Uh too many people had died fighting that thing. Sure. And it was not it was not a war I enjoyed fighting. Yeah. Mostly because I knew the history. Right. The Vietnamese uh fought for us all through the Second World War. And uh Ho Chi Men, who was never a communist, nei neither were the Vietmen, uh sent a sent copies of their he he sent copies of the uh constitution that he had written for consolidating all Vietnam into a country and asked our president for help in doing that. Uh he was afraid the French would try to come back into Indochina and take over their plantations again. Sure. And our president didn't help him. And and there I've seen copies of the what the constitution it was identical to ours. Yeah. She modeled it had quotes from most of our founding fathers. Founding fathers. Yeah. And uh there political reasons why we we didn't and back the French up for reintroducing themselves into Southeast Asia. The problem is the French didn't do a good job. We had to go in and save them save them. Anyway, uh by then it was uh you know perfect place for setting up a new government. Yeah. To consolidate everything to the south. I don't know. I I don't get too deep into the politics of it. Uh I just know that politicians start wars and the military finish them. Yeah. Um when did you first realize that you were uh maybe for lack of a better term kind of luckier than most or that you just somehow things just kept happening for you. Yeah. get feelings and when did that become what was there a moment or that you realized like there there's something going on here that you know actually I might not have never actually realized it I just used it um I was in a fire base and my job I was there temporar temporarily because I was using some equipment there intelligence equipment and uh we were assaulted in the middle of the night. Uh it was about 3:00 in the morning when they came on top of this and and uh fire bases were set up in triangles. So they have each firebase would support the other two. And uh my job if that happened was to go to the seat the uh combat uh I don't know what they call it now operations tactical center they call it and uh and my job was to take over the radios because I was well trained as a radio operator And uh so I did that. I grabbed all my gear and headed for the bunker, the seat top. And when I got there, they had steps going down into the ground. I hit the first two steps and I heard this this voice yell, "Freeze!" And I stopped and I actually looked to my left to see why I had to freeze because that's where the voice came from. And the whole bunker dissolved. some they got a dapper in there or something and blew it up. So all I saw was the white flashed and I woke up from 40 feet away. Got blasted back. Yeah. Blew me away. So I couldn't find a weapon or anything. So I just crawled in the nearest hole and uh had my knife. Yeah. Probably a goodiz rock. Yeah. and I just uh stayed there until dawn. Uh and at dawn they broke contact and uh I I never did figure out where that voice came from. Yeah. It was that kind of thing. And and did stuff like that has that happened to you your whole before like your whole life leading up to that point? Do you think it was something about near-death experiences that sort of spurns it on? No, it my near-death experiences didn't come till later. So, where I grew up in Miami, uh I had four sisters. They were all younger than me. Even my twin was 18 minutes younger. I never let her forget. And uh so like a good older brother. That's I had to Yeah. I took care of my mother and my four sisters in terms of the neighborhood. Yeah. Uh I put the word out. Pick on me. Don't ever pick on my sisters. Um because it was a tough place. Oh yeah, it was really tough. They if you go there today, you do not stop at stop signs, red lights, none of that. You never unlock the doors on your car. Uh it's just a really bad place. It It wasn't I don't have a memory of it being that bad when I lived there. Um uh we we go fishing down at Florida Keys and come back with a truckload of fish and just pull into the big parking lot and give fish away to everybody in the neighborhood and everybody liked everybody. Yeah. Uh it was the gang stuff, you know, the gangs were always causing problem. So uh was your dad around? Um yeah, my dad, that's an interesting story in itself. My dad was born in uh Jessup, Georgia and came to Miami when he was 12. And so he was there when they built uh John Deere built a huge uh villa. It was like uh made from coral stone and it was called Biscaya. It was huge and it had like a fake gallion in the water behind the house that that was his party boat. They just built it right there on stone. Well, my dad worked on that when he was 16 carrying stone and construction stuff. He had polio and his father left his mother when he was uh 14 and a half, 15 years old. And so he had braces on his legs. He couldn't get work wearing the braces. So he took them off, threw them in the trash, and then quit school. So he made it through whatever that is, sixth grade or something. Yeah. And went to work supporting his mother. Wow. He and his older brother, my uncle Red, a whole different story that um so he's uh out working. The only work he could get was carrying golf clubs at the golf course. They had two really beautiful golf courses back then. Gables. Yeah. He was a caddy. And he bet people that he could outdrive them. Oh, okay. when he was 17, 18 years old. Side hustle. And they look at his legs and go, "Yeah, okay." And he did. He would outdrive them. He was hell of a golfer. Wow. He could have been a professional actually if he didn't drink and smoke. No. Yeah. Yeah. He got by the time he was 15, he was carrying a bottle around his back pocket. Wow. But the guys he chatted for were mostly gangsters that would come down in the in the winter. uh they come down by train because the only way to get there was by train or square rigged ship. And I have pictures of Miami when it was a square of green grass with surrounded by palm trees and a wooden church on one end and a jail house and wow place on the other square rig ships anchored in the harbor that kind of thing. So, uh, he could never get any work other than labor. Okay? And when one leg is an inch and a half, 2 in shorter than the other, you're walking on the pad of your foot, the front pad of your foot. And on concrete over time, you create a callous. Oh, yeah. That's extremely thick and it goes right to the bone. So he probably suffered agonizing pain his whole life. So he drank and Yep. And I knew he drank for that reason. At the same time he did odd odd jobs to uh help the family and uh so he he did uh what do you call it? Uh fought with professional fighters as a like training them. Trainer. Oh yeah. Okay. his sparring partner. Yeah, sparring partner. Even though he had bra he grew up with braces on his leg, he ended up being a sparring partner for Pro Fighter. He he brought a guy home when I was 12. Brought a guy home. We had spaghetti and meatballs in the kitchen. And I looked at the guy. He was guy was huge. And I said, "Where where's your nose?" Cuz there's just this flap of skin hanging out. And he smiled. He laughed. He was a really cool guy and he said, "Oh, this really tough guy took it from me one night." And his name was Rocky Mariano. Oh, world snow. Well, yeah. So, that's the kind of people he brought home. Yeah. And he taught me how to fight. So, in the neighborhood, the thing was it's not about winning. When somebody picks on you, you just have to hurt them bad enough they don't want to come back for a second. That's right. Okay. That's right. So, that sort of kept me out of the gangs and uh and and other than that, he was just a gentle person. Mhm. And Saturdays they would uh pull all the cars in the big parking lot, the big circle with the headlights on, barefisted, fighting for money. No way. Yeah. And I was not allowed to be there, but I would sneak out and crawl under a truck or something. Watch. Yeah. And I Anybody Anybody could participate? Yeah. Yeah. You of course they take one look at his legs and it was like a piece of cake. Yeah. And he sent him to the doctor, I'll tell you. Yeah. I I asked him, he was a ringer. When I was about 18, I said, "Um, how come you never hit anybody in the face? Seems like that would be a short fight. Is he hit hard? He said, "Oh, no, no. You break your hand hitting somebody in the head." No. You You pound the ribs and the body follows the mind follows the body. Yeah. So, I mean, he was a tough guy, but a very, very softspoken, gentle guy. He loved to fish. Yeah. To blake off. I remember he played he came home once with a broken ankle and my mother said, "How how did you you were playing golf? How did you break your ankle?" He said, "Well, my ball got lodged in the crook of a tree." So, I climbed up the tree to to play it off the tree. Didn't want to take You want to take a stroke? Broke his ankle down. Caught the spikes on his shoes on the side of the tree. No way. You know. Yeah. turtle spikes back then too. So here that's right. Yeah, they were made for climbing trees. Played it out of the That's right. I guess there would have been a lot of military guys around like the fight scene back then. Did you kind of Did you think you'd go into the military when you were young because you're inspired to or? No. I'll tell you exactly why I joined the military. Um, when I was when I was younger, my mother and I were walking through Bayfront. It's called Bayfront Park now. It's right in downtown Miami, right on the harbor. And I went there and saw or didn't see went there and met Roy Rogers. Uh, the I got a silver bullet from uh the Long Ranger. Oh, yeah. I got to sit on on Tano's horse. Tano. Yeah. That that kind of thing. Okay. And she would always take me there for that when I was a kid and uh so we're going through this park and I was really thirsty so I just went over and got a drink out of this water fountain and and back it said colored only and she freaked completely. took me to the doctor and a doctor read me this ride act on all these diseases I would get using a colored only water fell. Oh my gosh. That didn't make any sense to me cuz I knew a lot of people, you know, most of my friends were were black. Yeah. And it was like they're not diseased. They're using that water fountain. They're fine. They're doing all right. I don't believe you. But I started paying attention to that. I got to tell you, back then when I was uh when I was young, I I have to tell you, Florida, specifically the Miami area was some of the most prejudiced area I've ever been in. And it offended me because like I said, most of my friends were Haitian, black, Cuban, refugee. Yep. Um I remember when we got 500,000 Cubans in the Miami and uh you know it was a huge problem because they took a lot of the jobs because they were they were coming from uh Havana where they lived working in the casinos and the big hotels. So they came to Miami and and in Miami on Miami Beach, if you work in a hotel in Miami Beach, say you're a dormant or something, you bid on your job. That's how important it is. You make a lot of money doing that. And so you literally bid and buy your own job. Wow. And uh so they came to Miami. You pay the guy that has the job to take his job. No, you pay the hotel. The hotel to get the job. guy who pays the most out of their salary gets the job. Got it. Well, they were coming out of a hardship into a place that have lots of really great hotels and things. So, guys who have been the chefs and the, you know, the bartenders and the health bar workers and all that were making good money and when all the refugees came into town, they came equipped to do those very jobs. Sure. So, I had a lot of friends who never got to go places or go to school. Uh myself, um I got sent to an all boys high school uh run by Jesuits, brothers of the Holy Cross, and that was paid for completely by a man on senior in the church. and I worked Saturdays answering phones and stuff at the church, but they paid all my educational expenses. So, I was lucky. Wow. And when you're trained by Jesuits and and monks that there is no prejudice, take my word for it. Yeah. Yeah. Except maybe I guess those who might mouth off at him or something. Yeah. Right. Um against the undisiplined man. So yeah, you know, I I got a scholarship. It was a full scholarship to University of Miami. Uh I went one day, I went and bought all my books, registered, got all my classes set up. Then I went to the orientation. The orientation was like 1,200 people in this big auditorium. Couldn't hear the guy up front. He was talking away and and everybody around me was talking and this this other guy stops and hands me an IBM card and he said, "That's your student ID. Your name doesn't matter. Memorize that." It was like 28 numbers. And I said, "You're kidding me. It I just came from a high school where the the biggest class I had was 12 people." Sure. So, so this isn't going to work. It's pretty overwhelming. Yeah. Yeah. It obviously it was very obvious to me this is a party school. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh so I told the guys around I says, "Anybody need any books?" Yeah. And I just blown all my savings on those books, right? It was like 400 bucks back then. Yeah. And they just stripped me of the book. So I said, "See you later." Really? Yeah. I went downtown and not for you. I was going to join the military. Okay. But I visited every single one of them, even the Coast Guard. Okay. And uh took a couple of my buddies with me and we were going to all join together. So we split up and everybody went to different places and I went to a number of them. And when I went in to see the guy, the army guy, Vietnam was just starting to build up. And he looked at me and he said, "Where'd you go to school?" I told him. He said, "You don't want to be in here." "Why not?" He said, "Uh, all we're going to do is turn you into a bullet catcher and a bullet launcher." Yeah. And smart for that. That's pretty honest. Go somewhere else. Yeah. So I went I checked uh Navy and Air Force and and you get these stories, you know, oh, you'll have a private room, you'll be visiting countries all over the world, you know, it'll be an adventure. Sales pitch. Yeah. Sales pitch. Yeah. You get pitched by all of them. So all my other buddies were getting that too. So they we all came together. They said, "Well, I think we ought to all join the Navy because they travel and we get to see all those countries." Said, "No, I'm I'm not going to join the Navy." "What are you going to do?" I said, "I don't know." So, two of them went off and joined the Navy. The rest didn't join anything. Oh. And I went back to the army and I walked in and he says, "What are you what are you doing coming back in here?" I said, "Sign me up." He said, 'What are you doing? He said, 'You, this isn't good for you. And I said, 'Well, it's like this. You're the only guy in this whole building didn't lie to me. Yeah. So, I enlisted in the army. Wow. And then when I got to Fort Jackson, South Carolina, I took a ton of tests. They give you all this whole battery of tests when you first arrive. And it I figure it must have been the testing because I went all through basic that's like eight 8 weeks and then I went through AIT and my that's advanced individual training and the weapon system I trained on was a uh they call it a Sidewinder back then but it was 6106 recall rifle barrels mounted like this. Yep. On tracks. Wow. Fast. Wow. Yeah. And it was a bucker a bunker buster or Yeah. You know, it was just a weapon for like shocking off. Yeah. Right. You know, you just pull the lanyard and all six rifle barrels show off. Wild. And uh so I got I got through AIT and they called me the order and said, "The army saw fit to uh obsolete your weapon system. They're turning them all over to the South Vietnamese, so go find another job." No way. Yeah. So I'm walking around on the base for two days. I don't like anything. It's like, "Oh, this is really going south in a hurry." And uh I go in the uh they had a beer hall connected to the post exchange, the BX. So I went in there and I'm I'm drinking a a whole picture full of 3.2 beer, which I got to tell you is bad. Bad. Sounds bad. Almost as well. Old Milwaukee was pretty good. The cans just rusted. That was only wrong with it. Yeah. All right. So, I'm sitting in there by myself because it's a training base and it's like two in the afternoon and this guy came in, this civilian, and he went all the way to the other corner and sat down. So, I yelled at him. I said, "What are you sitting way over there for? We could at least talk if you were over here." So, he came over and sat with me and he asked me what I was doing and I told him. So, he gave me his card. He says, "See me tomorrow morning. Maybe I can help you." And his card only had a phone number on it. Didn't even have his name on it, you know. So I said, "Uh, was it printed? Do you remember? Does it handwrit? Was it Did he handwrite his phone number?" It just printed a card with his phone number printed and that's he got them made that way. I called Yeah. So I I called him. I knew his first name. I can't remember it now, but uh I called him the next morning and he gave me directions on his office. So, I go to his office and it's in a trailer. It's out off to the side. It's in a trailer. So, I go in and uh he says, "So, what are you interested in?" And I told him, "Fishing." [Laughter] But he said, "Uh, well," he said, "I I recruit people for special jobs." And he was a an intelligence. Uh, okay. I didn't know that, but that's what he was. Sure. And I know that now, right? And uh he said, "So there's a whole lot of MOS's that I can get you into." That's really What's MOS? Sorry. The MOS. What's an MOS? My Well, I'm getting to that. Okay. Okay. Okay. No. I said, "So, how do you how do you pick an MOS?" And he said, "Oh, military occupational specialy." Oh, okay. Okay. He says, "Um," he hands me a dart and he says, "Stam me under the red line." So, you're behind the red line. He pushes this cur G and there's a standard dart board up there and each little section had printed black aim. No way. An MOS. No way. He says, "So, you just loft that dart in there and whatever it hits, we'll see if you qualify." We'll see. Well, that's the first step. So I loft it in there and it hits right on a black line that divides the second. So I said, "So what happens now? Do I get a second shot?" He said, "Oh no, that's an MLS." I went off. You're kidding. He said, "No, it's a small one, but it's an MOS." Okay. Uh, so what is it? He says, "I can't tell you. It's classified. What are we doing? So, what base is this on? Where was this? Fort Jackson, South Carolina. Okay. He He's an intelligence recruiter for something that he's not can't talk about. Yeah. Right. So, he explains all this stuff to me and he says, uh, to be an intelligence, you have to, uh, you have to have a clearance. It takes a year and a half to clear you for a year clearance. And that's just for school. And then by the time you get out of school, you get a the clearance you need. It takes a year and a half. Yeah. Background check. They do background check. And then depending on the what it is you're doing, they may scrub out part of your history. Oh, interesting. So he says, "So you you're enlisted for three years. That's not long enough. You got to be in six years to be in intelligence." And I said, "Well, I guess I'm out of luck then." He said, "Oh, no. I'll arrange a short discharge and you just reinlist for six years." And I'm sitting there thinking, "Six years." Six years. Do I want to do this? How How old were you? I was 18. Oh, okay. Just turned 18. Oh, so it's like longer than You have memories in that point. Longer than I spent in high school. Yeah, absolutely. Way too way long. High school was hard enough. Yeah, totally. So, I thought about I thought, well, I'm not going back to Miami, that's for sure. And I'm not I got nothing else to do. Why not, you know? Sure. So, I checked in for sex and he wrote out a bunch of papers for me and and uh I went back to my my unit. So in my unit I'm sitting and waiting. Uh they came and they sent everybody literally almost everybody block out allocated to Vietnam. They're all on order sheets. They're just list of names. Yeah. Southeast Asia. I'm not on any list. So I'm sitting in the empty barracks for like a week and you know just eating and reading and sleeping. And the company commander comes in and he gives me counts out in cash $450. He said, "Get in the car outside. They're going to take you to a men's store. Buy Seline clothes." Uh, okay. Am I buying for the winter or the summer? Shorts jackets or what? And he says, "One of everything." I said, "Okay." Wow. So they took me to Lynchberg. Uh, no, that wasn't in South Carolina. I'm sorry. They they moved me first to my unit where I was going to be trained for the intelligence and that was in Massachusetts. Got it. And uh, so they sent me to Lynchburg in Massachusetts and it's a men's store there and I filled up a suitcase. So I come back and I said uh you have to uh go to this school and the school my first class was nothing but ready for this Morse code. Okay. So I'm thinking, uhoh, 120 people in my class and we had to reach a point where we could uh send or receive uh I think it was 20 words a minute with a pencil. Okay. And old J28 key. And you still don't know what you're doing yet. No. No. You just keep going there. You can't be We can't tell you yet. No, that's we still haven't decided whether we can tell you, but start doing all the stuff to get ready for it. And I knew I knew this was going to be a problem because we were standing out there one morning in the quadrangle in ranks and we hear this guy way up on top of the building standing on the edge of the roof yelling, "You ba motherfucker." And he does a nose dive right off the roof and hits the pavement head first. splat. No. Yeah. Suicide right there. And I'm thinking, "Oh, man. What what the hell am I getting into here?" Yeah. Because talk about a bad omen. Oh, can't be that. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Well, I spent I spent like six months in that class. Couldn't get past 12. Just nothing could get me past 12. The problem was I I'd hear the sound and I'd translate it in my head and by then I'm two letters behind. I just wasn't fast enough. I was trying to translate as fast. I couldn't do it. So I thought I'm screwed. So this is on a Sunday night uh the coming weekend. I went through that and then Sunday night I said I can't go this Monday. I'm gonna go have a few beers. Well, I don't have a pass or anything. So, I went out through a hole in the fence to this uh hotel in town and shot pool and drank beer all night. I didn't sleep. Just shot pool and drank beer. I thought, "This ought to get me out of just about everything." And and I go back in the morning and and school started. I'm late. I go into the classroom. pump. And I'm sitting in the chair and the trainer comes up and he goes, "Oh man, where have you been?" And I said, "I've been drinking." And he said, "That's obvious." He said, "Well, you better get to work." And so I'm sitting there and he puts the headsets on me and walks away. So something in my head went pop. I mean, just pop. It clicked. And I pass 12, 15, 18, 20, 22. No way. I'm two two over. Yeah. That day. No pro. Within two and a half hours. Yeah. I'm not even thinking anymore. It just happens. Yeah. So I I guess it's like learning a language fluidly. Fluently. It it something pops and you just It's like you're born with it. Yeah. Right. And today I can still do that. It's okay. Never goes away. It's burned into my skull. So I graduated second in that class. Block allocated everybody. Vietnam except for the top three guys. First, second, and third. Wow. Okay. Why are you holding us back? Well, you get to go to another school. Oh, great. I go to another school. And the other school is how to operate a Russian transmitter, a Chinese transmitter, Korean transmitter, Czech transmitter, all these different radios, how to operate them and use them because you can't read the dials, you know, you can't read any of the stuff on them and some other things. That school is like, I don't know, 15 weeks, 14 weeks. And are you getting you're getting paid? Is that are you in the army? You're on the clock. Oh, yeah. I was getting let's see50 $52 a month. All right. I was living that high life, man. Yeah. Okay. What's the next? When I joined the army, I had a temporary job working in the warehouse where my dad worked. I was making more money than he was. Wow. In like two months. Yeah. Since I graduated. Wow. Uh, so I'm in the army making a whopping $52 a month. Yeah, pay's good. Yeah, good pay. And spent it all that one night in a hotel pool and deer. And uh so I graduated I graduated first in that class other guys. And this is like a class of 22 or 24 I can't remember now. block allocated Vietnam except for the top two guys. I get to go to a third school. Third school dead of winter. I was the only guy that showed up in uh like civilian clothing. Everybody else is in uh Marines, civilian, navy, civilian. There's like six of us in this class. spent the entire three months of winter in the woods. No heat. I didn't see a heated tent up to my butt in snow. I mean, it was fun. Wow. Can't tell you what that was all about, but I had a great time. Okay. Uh it was So that's a secret third school. Yeah. Right. We can't know. Secret third school. So what graduated first in that class. Is it was it physical? Was it me? Was it Yes. All of the above. All right. Okay. So, yeah. But is it but it's intelligence focused? Yeah. Okay. So, I graduated first in that class. The other guys just went places. I don't even know. Yeah. I'm sitting around in the barracks for two weeks again, eating my meals, reading, and sleeping. They came and got me one night. They took me to a an airport where they had a C130 and I had to stand there and sign for all this these PL these uh pallets loaded down with classified material. Had to sign for all of them and then put me on board with my suitcase and we made uh six stops between 9:00 at night and dawn. And every time we stopped, I was signing off stuff to people with with orders to get it, IDs and all that. We got down to one box sitting on a pallet and the last stop and they said, "Sigh here." I sigh for that box. Got my bag and my box and got off the plane. Plane to go. So I'm sitting here crack of dawn. You don't know where you are. Have no idea where I am. You're in America? No. No. No. But Okay. You're okay. Yeah. This This is fun. Yeah. Wow. So, I'm sitting there and I'm I'm looking around and over here I I can hear the breakers of the water breaking on the beach and it's the the water is like black. So, dark purple black. I know that's ocean over here. Right off my left shoulder is water as far as you can see, but it's a light turquoise color. So, it's like, okay, so this is shallow. This is really deep. And this where I'm sitting is only maybe three football fields wide. How was the temperature? As far as I could see that direction, as far as I could see that direction, it didn't get any wider. It just just sort of went away. And I'm sitting there, nothing. Tin shack, sitting on a log. It's hot, cold, normal. Super warm. Super warm. Okay. And uh and I'm wearing a basically a suit. I took the tie off and uh this baby blue jeep pulls up and this guy gets out. He's in black black shorts, a white undershirt, white t-shirt, and flip-flops. And he walks over and says, "Are you Joe?" And I said, "Yeah." He said, "I'm S. I'm your new boss, and I'm only going to say this once. I'm a warrant officer. Don't ask me again." And I I'm like, "Okay, get in the Jeep." So, we got in the J and I'm on a Lutheran in the Bahamas. I'm like a $25 whisper jet round trip from Miami. Oh my gosh. Just like right there. Right there. Luther in the Bahamas. Yeah. I mean, a downrange uh base from Cape Canaveral where they launch rockets. Okay. Uh I logged probably I was there 18 months. I like four 4,000 plus hours of diving and spearing fish. Scuba and snuba. Yeah. Yeah. Spearing fish, eating lobster. Yeah. Pretty much not doing anything except fishing except my cover. You know what my cover was? Air sea rescue. What rescue? Air sea rescue. Air rescue. Saving people going down. on the odds. Yeah, right. I can't tell you what the job was. Sure. But there I am for 18 months. I was the only one that extended 6 months. Wow. And still making $52 a month. But I'm on a base that's got maybe 800 people on it and they're all working for Cape Canaveral. It's a downrange telemetry tracking site. It's William Bendix, RCA Victor, Paname. They're all civilian engineers. Everybody on that base was a civilian engineer except for the base commander who was one Air Force guy on the whole island. Yeah, he was the base commander. Okay. The unit I was in, there's eight of us. And uh so you ready for this air sea rescue? I'm like one of two people that could swim. This is United States Army and I'm thinking why why isn't this a Navy job? Yeah. Yeah. For real. So I taught everybody who couldn't swim how to swim. I taught their kids how to swim. I taught their wives how to swim. Yeah. My boss out of SW, which is a bad trip to begin with. Yeah. So, the island is all it's all people related to this or are there local? No, it's like dessert. There's almost no people on it. It's the bread basket of the Bahamas is where they grow all the food. Okay. So, it's all farms as far as you can see. We used to We used to have thought uh you're not allowed to have a gun there either, although we had a few. Yeah. Of course. Yeah, they're locked away. But okay. Uh we hunted um uh game birds. Okay. And in the uh the fields where they grew corn and stuff, but you couldn't hunt them with a gun. So we would sight out a jeep and hang off the side of the jeep with a bad mitten racket. No way. Yeah. Way. No way. They'd rip down through the fields and when the bird would go, we throw the bird in the bat and get another one. Yeah, I'm not kidding. This is This is wild. But while I'm there, pre smartphones, you know. Well, what was your rank at that time? The at the time I was a since I graduated so high in all the classes, I was a corporal. Okay. Okay. So, and my boss there was a staff sergeant. We worked in pairs. So, my true boss was a warrant officer, but the guy I worked with every day was a staff sergeant. And he was supposed to show me the ropes. And uh so I showed him how to fish, how to swim. He showed me the ropes. Um what what happened is the Bahamas went independent from England and didn't want any help from America. Problem was this island's 116 mi long, 300 yards wide. Yeah. Anywhere. It has one hill that's 52 feet above sea level and two cops, one in each end, and they ride bicycles. Yeah. And they wear that beautiful red, blue, and white uniform with a pith helmet with a night stick. Great. Bubbies, you know. So, it but there was never any trouble on the island. Just a lot of refugees and some other issues. But, so it was not a bad job. It was a great job. And I loved it there. and uh $52 a month. At some point in there, we got a huge pay raise because the army had fallen so far behind. Okay. And my pay went from 52 a month to 185 a month. No worries. Here we go. We were tired. Yes. That that was like me. So I But I got to know all the locals. uh especially a guy named Maurice who I think was a hitman out of Haiti and wow but but it was a good tour and and uh when I left there Vietnam okay but just before I left there we had a uh serious hurricane I've been in probably 12 hurricanes in my life being in Miami this was the only class five hurricane I've ever been in all I never see another one. So, we're on a hill. We have a band which is an operational band. We have a van which is an admin van. The these are size of this room maybe. Yeah. Uh just a little narrower. Sure. Perhaps. But outside that exactly the size of this room. Two of those. We have some stick built maintenance equipment and whatnot. And then we have an antenna field and it's all on paving at the top of that 52 foot above sea level. Hill the hill. The one hill. And and this class 5 hurricane arrives and sits on us for like 14 hours. And did you guys know it was coming at that? Yes, you did. Absolutely. So, everybody packs up and goes down to the runway where there's a uh C47. That's an old Gooni bird, you know, tail dragger. Yep. Sitting on the runway. And my boss said, "What I want you guys to do is me and my partner says, "When the wind gets above 75 knots, wrap all the class 5 material up in black plastic. throw it in the jeep, run down here because we're only like quarter mile away. Run down here and offload it on the plane and we'll get we'll get out of here. Had 70 m an hour. Yeah, 75 75 knots. 75 knots, which I can't remember how it trans. Yeah, it's like maybe 85 miles an hour or something. Anyway, so I'm watching the animator and I'm talking using a radio in Morse code. I'm talking to Homestead Water, weather guy in Homestead, and he's telling me where the hurricane is and the wind suddenly goes 75 knots, 115. We're rushing. We're trolling. We're We're just trolling stuff in the back of the Jeep and we just about get the Jeep loaded. There goes the plane. No. So, we looked at each other and we said, you know, this is not going to be good. And he's never been in a hurricane before. He's from Chicago or something. So, I said it go to the maintenance shed and find the uh tie down chains because when they delivered these bands, they had to be coming in on a low boy. Yeah, sure. Chained to the low boy. Uhhuh. So, he goes to get the chains and I started driving these two stakes into the coral cuz this whole hill is just a mount of coral. Yeah. So, I drove the stakes in the coral. We chain these things down and he and I both like jumped up and down on the crank to get it as tight as we could get it. 115 knot winds. Yeah. Oh, by then it's up to like 130. Yeah. Sure. And climbing. So, we get everything of value into that one van. That was the operational van. And just as we're ready to get in there, two wild dogs went right in the van. I'm going get out. You know, they're not going anywhere. Yeah. And you don't want to kick them out because it's a hurricane. So, we go in, we weld we welded the inside seam of the door. You had a welder. Yeah. And you'll just We have a host on it or something. What we did is we wrapped the uh inside uh part of the door. There's a like a five five pin door, steel door. Oh, yeah. Okay. wrapped everything with one inch ground wire. Uh welded everything in place so it was completely sealed. Um we're starting to hear these rocks and things hitting the side of the van. The wind starting to pick up. We're in this van for 20 hours. at one point three and a half ft of water inside because we're only 80 yards from the ocean and uh we're sleeping wrapped up in army blankets up on top of these metal racks where we had all the equipment on top of that. Yeah. So we're sleeping on top of the racks. Dogs are up with the dogs in the in the blanket with us. But if you touched them like you know it's like don't handle me man. It's like oh god uh 20 hours were in there and it was horrific because we didn't know when the van shaking violently. We didn't know when something was going to happen that was going to be like terminal. Yeah. Your nerves must be just completely just totally on edge. And I was I was still I was talking to Homestead till the wind got to like 150 and my antenna just went right off the van. So that was it, you know. No more talking to Homestead. Uh and they they were really cool. They were trying to calm us down. Uh it'll be all over in a few minutes, you know. Yeah. Okay. So when it finally did die down and go away and uh I was able to cut us out of the van, we came out of this van that now the van was a white enamel van when we went in. Now it's stainless steel. There is no enameling on this van anywhere. It's just a mass of dents and cuts from the rocks and sand and uh everything's gone. two pickup trucks, two Jeeps, uh the uh two 35KW sled mounted generators, all the cabling, all the antennas, the other vans, the sheds, the repair shop, everything's completely gone. Not only that, but the asphalt in the underllayment scrubbed off the mountain, the hilltop. every I'm not kidding. It's the most impossible thing you could imagine. We found one of the trucks like 6 months later. You could see light blending off the side window. It's laying on its side in about 300 ft of water a half a mile offshore. We We saw it fishing. Were we the only two guys on the island that No. No. There were listen when we came out I won't tell you how many people died on the island cuz I don't know right a lot of people died there were bodies in trees where they tied themselves in trees the you know what happens in a graveyard the ground gets so inundated with water that the coffins pop up they float out yeah and spin around and get slammed up against things and they come open so there's remnants of bodies everywhere And it's like, wow. And uh we couldn't go anywhere cuz the road was gone. We didn't even know where the road had been. So I guess it was 3 days. Uh we had a ca we had a case of tuna fish and we had uh four cases of beer. So we're drinking beer. We're trying to drink as little as possible. Yeah, because we don't know how long we're going to be there. You're rationing it. Yeah, we're like 15 miles from the base and there was nothing except the base and no road. So, we're up there on this hilltop with these two wild dogs. We're feeding them tuna fish. They gave up on that in a hurry. They started killing crabs. They go into the woods, kill a crab. Yeah. They didn't share. But uh one day this noise, we hear this this engine getting louder and louder and this bulldozer just came up the side of the hill and went boom. They cut a whole new road. They thought we were dead. They came found us. So So here's what happened to me as a result. Uh the colonel flew out from the states. I had to report to him formally, which I did, and I got a article 15, that's nonjudicial punishment. Article 15 cost me two months of pay because I didn't follow direct orders. I didn't like go down to the runway with all the important stuff. And I tried to explain. He said, "I don't want to hear it." So, why would that happen? I came out of there. I was so pissed off. I didn't want to talk to anybody. And my boss says, "Now turn around and go right back in there and report again." I said, "Why? I'm not reporting to asshole." He says, "Don't let me hear you say that again. Turn around. This is an order. Go back in there and report." So, I turned around, went back in, and reported. Got promoted to buck sergeant and staff sergeant. two promotions and a meritorious service medal for surviving and saving my partner. So at the end of 18 months, he's the guy I was being trained by is now working for me. Wow. Wow. And uh it was like wow. So I left there. Where do you think I went? Vietnam straight away where everyone eventually got bullet. Big big problem though because I've been in the army less than 5 years. I'm already a staff sergeant and I arrive and I check into the early room at the 330th recon and the captain says, "Oh great, I don't have to give you these." And he holds up a pair of staff sergeant Oh, metals, the things. And he says, uh, he he just throws them in the trash can. He said, "You know what those are?" I said, "No." He said, "Those are blood stripes." What the hell is a bloodstripe? He said, "That guy died, so you get to wear his stripes and take his job." And I'm like, "But but I don't know anything about being a staff ser, you know, please don't do this to me." You don't have a choice, pal. Yeah. So, I'm a platoon leader already and uh don't know what the hell I'm doing. Oh my gosh. So, the first the first time I go out with anybody, it's a team of five guys and we're out we we go out through the the wire. We go thousand yards into the jungle and stop. Everybody stop. Now, we're still within hearings of the base, the base camp. I said, "Who's who's been here the longest in this?" Uh, one guy raised his hand. I've been here six months in three days. I said, "You're in charge." Yeah, that's smart, right? And I just started taking the different jobs one by one to learn them. So my first four months in Vietnam, I was a staff sergeant working for privates. Yeah. I you know it I couldn't do anything else. Yeah. Because I didn't want to make any mistakes. I didn't want to get somebody killed. And uh it still doesn't work out. Yeah. It it still uh it still was hard. Um, so by the time I came out of Vietnam, I was in ' 87, so I was a really young sergeant first class and then spent the rest of the time almost overseas. And I go Europe, Korea, Europe, Thailand, Europe, you know, wow, different places. Um, and learned a lot doing that. But I was an E7 for 12 years in grade. I couldn't get promoted. Yeah. And I had a boss, a colonel I worked for in Germany, and I said, we were drinking coffee one night in this office. They said, "How come we can't get promoted? I I can't even see a promotion board. It's like, what's going on? If we promote you, we lose you, and we don't want to lose you." Oh my god. So they pro promote the idiots to get them out of the unit and the guys who are worthy put up with it. Oh, that's incredible. Well, in the end it paid off. After almost 15 15 years overseas, I get orders for the headquarters. I'm not going to headquarters. I'm not going to push papers. I've been in an active job. Yeah. My whole life. I'm not going to go and push papers. So, I called this I had a special bothers. So, I had uh a special number I could call at the Pentagon. So I called this young lady up and I said, "I can't go to headquarters. You got to fix it." And she says, "You know, all the special ops people have these special phone numbers they can call." Like, I don't want to do this. Oh, you want something nastier? Yeah. Okay. Is it hot and wet or mang? Uh, so I called I called my favorite number up. I said, "Uh, I I can't go to the headquarters. You got to change it." Uh, let me check. So, she puts me in a hole and she comes next. I can't change this one. It's It's the three star that runs all the intelligence in the army has demanded your presence. I'm like, "Oh crap. What What else can I do?" "I can't help you. There's nothing you can do." I said, "Uh, sit. I'm thinking for a minute. So I said, "What's my ALAT DWAT scores? That's for languages." Okay. She says, "Oh, you max them both." And I said, "What language can I take?" And she said, "Anyone you want." And I said, "How about I want to learn to read, write, and speak Mandarin." She said, "Oh, that can get you out of the headquarters. It's like two years at Monteray. Immersive. Okay, cool. So, she cuts orders for me. I get a deal. Yeah, that's very creative. So, yeah. So, I'm I go to Monteray. I arrive at Monteray on a Saturday and uh I'm unpacking my duffel bag and the orderly comes in and says, "Hey, Sarge, there's some general on the phone. He wants to talk to you." So, I go to the early room. Hello. This is General So and so, his name is Roya. He says, "Do you know who I am?" I said, "No, sir. I haven't got a clue." "Well, I'm your new boss, and I want to know why you're in Monteray, not my headquarters." And I'm like, "Uh, well, the army saw fit the train cuts me right off." He says, "My office, Monday morning, full dress uniform. Don't let the screen door hit you in the butt." Slams the phone down. And the orderly all the way across the room. Now, this is a bow receiver says, "Sounded like an order to me." So, I'm jamming my clothes back in the duffel bag and went to the headquarters. So I get to headquarters late Sunday and they put me in officer. I said what's going on? Well, they have no room in the BEQ. Uh BOQ or BEQ rather. So they put you in the BOQ. Okay. U Monday morning sharp 9:00 I reported dress uniform to the general's office. And he I'm standing at attention in front of his desk and he says, "Okay, everybody come in. Everybody all these people come in. I don't even know who they are." And he comes 10 10 people, 50 people. 15. Anyway, I I don't know for sure. 10 10ish. Yeah. 10 10 to 15. And where was this? It's in his office. But where's the like what's Oh, this is in Arlington. In the main head to Arlington over the weekend. Okay. This is This is the main headquarters for the Army uh Army Intelligence and Security Command. Okay. Worldwide. First time in Arlington or Oh, I never seen the place before. Okay. And uh and it's got like I don't know 250 officers there and a handful of enlisted guys. And uh so all these people come in and the general comes up in front of me and he says, "Uh, how'd you like to be a warrant officer?" I said, "Sure. No board." He just makes me a warn officer, puts the pens on me, and I'm like, "Wow, I didn't know they could do that." And so he says, "I'm putting you in charge of your military occupational specialy for the whole world." And I went, "Whoa." And he says, "And your desk is right above mine in the next floor up." So I got my own office. And so I said, "What do you think?" I said to him, "I can't do it, sir." Why not? because I'm just a warrant officer and that's a year probation and I got 28 now chief warrant officers out there in the world in my MOS that aren't going to do what I told can I make him a chief warrant officer and his secretary says you can do anything you want general okay he takes the warrant pins off and puts chief warrant pins on says now can you do your out. Well, I'm not sure these guys are going to do what I tell him. He says, "That's your problem. I'm sure you'll work it out." I salute him and I left walk out. So, I took over my MLS. So, are these when you ever when these promotions come because I know there's so much rank in military. Do they come with associated pay increases? You sometimes get Yeah. Monster pay increases. So he he's not only promoting you in the military, but you're getting a pay raise. Sure. So he gave you a pay bump really quickly. Now you're like, I still can't do my job. He's like, what about now? And you get another pay bump. And it's like, okay, I guess I can try. So you just inherited payraises also alongside the promotions. Yeah, that's why. So yeah, but you got to remember you're walking into a storm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I didn't know I didn't know what to do for a while. I I just knew these guys, they're going to know how this happened. They're not going to do anything at all. So, um, what I did is I selected some of the ones that I knew were going to be hard to handle and I brought them all to the headquarters and I put up these whiteboards and uh, had some information on them like my duties and I said told these now these are just some of the guys who I knew were going to be a problem. Sure. I said, "Study the whiteboards and I'll be right back." And they did. And I came back and I said, "You all understand the duties here that I have." Yeah. And they're all sitting there thinking, "I uh better you than me." And so I said, "Uh, who wants to trade?" Guys are sliding down trying to hide. Yeah. At least they these guys were. So I said, "Okay, go back to you." I hear one growl. I'll be there. You'll be here. Yeah. Never heard a word. Wow. Well, then so that only lasted a year. Okay. And I thought I was doing a pretty good job. And then the general calls me in one day and he says, "Um, I want you to go out to uh Stanford Research Institute International." I said, "What am I doing there?" He said, "You're going to garner as much information as you can on this new thing called remote viewing." Uh, it's a hanky project they want to start and I don't know what it's about. I got this feeling. I got feeling I don't want to know what it's about. Yeah. But I need somebody to wash my back. So he sent me to Stanford. So I'm out at Stanford, flew out there and introduced myself and said, "Um, I got all these questions about this stuff." And I started asking them. They said, "Hold up. You know, if you really want to know about it, you need to do a couple. You learn more that way than any other way." So, who was the first person you met out there? Uh, I met Hal Putoff and Russell Tart. And, uh, so they had me do some remote viewing. I did six in like three days. And uh turns out when they and these are all done completely blind. The people that are in the room with you don't know. You don't know. The person who judges them doesn't know it. It nobody knows anything. It's like totally completely blind. And uh so they what they do is when you do your drawing sketches or say whatever you're going to say, they try to use that information to pick out which one is the real one out of like six possibilities. So I had five perfect matches and one near perfect. Whoa. It's it's till today it's like the best six ever done. And I'm like wow. And you know how that happened? I said, "Okay, I'm sitting in a room with Russell Tark." I said, "What do I do next?" He says, "Tell me about where this He showed me a picture of somebody." He says, "Where this guy went." I said, "How am I supposed to do that? I don't know anything. There's no windows here. I don't even see what direction he drove on." You didn't know what remote viewing was. You had no idea. Like a psychic type of thing. No idea. He's just asking you questions. Well, he didn't even do that. He just said, "Tell me where he is." And you know, how do how do I do that? He said, "Invent something. Whatever pops in your head." And so that's what I did. I just invented. Whatever was coming into my head. It turns out it was like the first one was uh this these drawings uh like a bicycle rack of buildings of trees, this mass of stuff. Well, it turns out it was a pretty good description of the art museum on Stanford campus. Guess where he was? Art museum campus. So, it was that kind of thing. And so I came back to their headquarters, confused, knowing pretty much what it was about, but having a hard time dealing with it. Yeah. And and how am I going to explain this to the general? So I I wrote some kind of a draft on the way back on the plane. So I go through my office. I was going to like polish it there, type it out, and give it to the general. My desk is empty. What the hell? So, I go down to the general. I've got my notes and walk in. I start telling him what it's all about. And I said, um, you know, my desk is empty. I would have done our formal report, but why is my desk empty? Yeah. He said, well, they're starting this project at Fort me. And uh he said, "I'm telling you, this is really hanky. This stuff, I don't know what it is about. It spares me." So, I'm sending you to Fort Me. Now, I'm going to tell you what I actually did. I got down one knee. Got down on the fort. General, please do not send me to Fort me. And he's looking at me and says, "Why not?" And I said, "This is a career killer. This is going to tear my career. No one will take me seriously. Nobody take anything seriously." It's like this is like hanging me out. You know, they used to hang pirates in a in a iron cage out in front of the city. Yeah. Might as well have been. Yeah. So, did the other chief warrant officers know you were getting sent there or you just I don't for them you just disappeared. I don't care what they knew or you know so I just didn't want to go you know and he says no he says I need somebody there. I need somebody to watch my back and he said I trust you so I'm sending you to Fort Me. He was afraid of this of this studying. Many of these people were he was afraid it would come back and be pinned like associated with him. Oh yeah. Yeah. Wash on him some negative stuff. And so he was trying to put you in there to separate himself from it. Well, no, he was trying to get somebody in there that could warn him if it was like going south or going crazy or what, whatever. So I did what you have to do in the army is I stood up, snapped attention, saluted and said, "Yes, sir." Yeah. Cut the orders. I fort the best job I could. What were you? That's how I got into it. Well, actually, I have a question. The first time that Russell Tar was asking you to trace targets was you probably didn't have any ego involved because you didn't even know what you were doing. Well, yeah. What what happens first time anybody does something. The ego-driven part of the mind goes, I don't know what's going on here, and I can't be wrong, so I'm going to back up any part in it. I want Yeah. I'm going to see how this works. what happens. The problem in this case was it was six of them over a three-day period. So, I was completely confused. So, I was just responding the way he told me to. Yeah. And you they weren't telling you if you got it right after each one. You know, you don't know. You don't know. You all six were blind. Even the They don't tell you They don't tell you anything. Yeah. And And uh so you could never think, "Oh, I got four for four. Oh, I'm five for five. Or you never do any of those. At the end, they said you did a really good job. Got it. You know, it's like, yeah, and if you join this unit, you only have to do six years, you know, that's what they do, you know, when they got a really nasty thing they want you to do. You got great salesman. Yeah. Um, if you knew some of the places I'd been and some of the jobs I did while I was in the army, like before this, you'd go, "Oh, man. You you were screwed to the bone." Yeah. Yeah. I was out of MOS more than I was in MOS. And I was [Music] um I I created more problems for commanders I work for keeping them out of trouble then you know it was like uh what would be a good example? Well, they consolidated a huge headquarters in Auxburg, Germany, and the colonel that was put in charge of the security for the building. Huge 30,000 square ft. They had the equivalent of our CIA, the German CIA, the French CIA, Spanish CIA, every NATO CIA was all in there. our CIA and then uh all kinds of other things, linguists and every everybody all these intelligence brought together from all over Europe into this one building which makes a hell of a great target for Russian spies. Gosh, they just finished putting up putting it all together. Everybody's in this building. They're working there for like four months and this colonel comes up and said, "I heard a lot about you. Come into my office. I want to talk to you." Go in the office. He says, "I need somebody who's going to run physical security for this building." I said, "Well, I don't know anything about physical security." He says, "Doesn't matter. I know how good you are, what you do." Oh, by the way, here's another guy. And he introduced me to and he says, "You guys will be partners in this." So, we go out, we get in the car with my new partner, and I says, "So, what is it we're supposed to be doing here?" He says, "Breaking in." Oh. You know, they use lethal force here. So, don't mess up. And yeah, don't screw up. And I And uh wait a minute. Hold it. Screech. Hold it right there. I just locked the brakes on this vehicle. Uh, so that's the first thing we did. We broke in. They caught me, which was deliberate. And he, while he caught me and were dealing with me, he was going over a different part of the fence. So he's in the building. Did you know you were going to get caught? Yeah. You with you in the pan. So So when they said freeze, Yeah. You know, what position would you like me in? you know. Um, so but the MPs take me inside to a private room and now they want to know, you're American. Why did you break in? What are you after? Who you work for? Blah blah blah. And I'm not telling them anything. My job is to to not do anything until the clock on the wall says a certain time and then tell them who I am and why I'm there. You're the diversion. I'm the diverted because my partner is walking around inside with a badge he took off somebody's jacket when he bumped into him and he's planting these little cards that say boom on all over the building. Oh wow. Okay. Just to prove he had been there. Prove he's been through. Oh yeah. Prove I could I could have done it. Yeah. So I'm getting the phone book against side of the head. You know that kind of stuff. So the time changes. It gets sick right time. And I said, "Okay, everybody stop. Uh I am uh the new guy, one of the new guys in charge of phys physical security for this building. You just violated so many rules. I can't tell you how many. Get your boss in here now." So the senior colonel comes in to try the building and as soon as he sees me, cuz he knows me, he goes, "Oh god. cuz he knows I got to write him up. Oh, cuz you got in. Which is why I never saw a promotion. Oh, the colonel in charge of security for the building loves me. The guy that's responsible for the security hates my guts because that stuff's going on. And you shared the vulnerabilities. Yeah. So we did I did that for almost three years. It was like just so many things went wrong in that place because you're you're fighting people who don't like rules, you know? It's like what do you mean I have to change accommodation on my dial safe? Oh yeah. Once a month, you know, you know what a pain in the butt that is. Yeah. Everyone hates security. And then they forget where they put the combination. Yeah. They can't get in their own safe. So they call you and say, "Okay, you made me do this. Now you come unlock my safe." So I got really good at picking locks and the locking station. That's cool. Um. Yeah. Cool. If you like the job. Um, but this is not for me. This was later on. This is insburg, Germany. Okay. Yeah. This is a long time before that. And uh anyway, if we if we jump back to Fort Me, when you first get it there, what are you doing? I mean, in Fort me, uh when I got to Fort Me, they were starting this uh project. It was back then it was called Gondola Wish. And that was trying to find uh they were trying to find three people in the United States Army that were psychic. But you can't walk up and say, "Are you psychic?" No. You got to know they are. And so you do that through, you know, uh questioning, talking to people, asking them to do things that sort of point it out. So, one of the things they did is they put just this massive psychic stuff on a big table. It was uh you know out of rag magazines in Europe uh out of newspaper clippings uh man psychic man finds dog you know that kind of stuff. Just a mass of stuff on the table. But buried in there were was a handful of like reports out of Russia and other places that said uh that they were doing this kind of work. And so they brought me in there the first day I was there. They brought me in and said, "Look at the stuff on the table and we're going to ask you some questions when we get through." I spent all day just pawing through the stuff and they came up later and said, "Uh, so what do you think? Do you think any of this stuff is real?" And I said, "No, I think most of the stuff on that table is You know, just crap." But there are a couple things on there that give me pause. And they said, "What do you mean?" And I said, "I would consider it a threat. I'd want to know a whole lot more about it. Okay, that's fair. And asked me some more questions like that. And it just seemed like they didn't know what they were doing and I was just giving them an honest answer. So they thanked me and said, "Thanks for coming over and helping us." And I left. And then uh a week later they brought me back. And this time there were like 30 30 or so people there. What they had done is they winnowed it down from likeund and something people from the whole all of all over America, the DC area and whatnot down to 30 and then the 30 they they brought in Russell Target and Hal put off. They talked to these people. So, I got to talk to Russell and uh and uh Hal again. And then they said, um uh this is going to be about a new project that's going to involve some esoteric things. If you feel like that's going to damage your abilities in the army, leave because the next briefing you're going to get, you cannot on here. And a bunch of people got out and left. And what they were after was three people because that's the contract that was signed with Stanford. But when they met the remaining, there were 12 I think remaining. When they met the remaining 12, how and Russell had talked and said, "We changed our minds. We're not going to change the money part of it, but we want six instead of three." Because they had been talking to the people. So, they got six. They picked six people. And I was the first one that they helped on. And I know it was the results of the remote viewing. So I got 001 was my identification number. And the next guy, they were going to give him 002 and somebody said, "Wait a minute. We'll be telling everybody how many people we have." So he got 385. So I'm I'm the only Devil's Neuro guy. I tell everybody I'm the only one authorized to kill with my mind. Okay. So myself maybe. Yeah, maybe. So, well, it's funny because the general sent you not knowing that you I mean, you didn't even like the idea of this hanky stuff. Oh, here's the thing. He didn't know you'd get selected. If I had all the interest in the world in it, I wouldn't have done it voluntarily because it I've had senior uh senior senators, very senior senators in the second most powerful committee on in in the Senate, the Senate sub the Senate Select Subcommittee for Intelligence. stand up and say, "You, sir, are doing the work of the devil. You will burn in the fires of hell." And walk out of the room. Yeah. And and that same committee, I've had other Senate senior senators come up and wipe the tears out of their eyes and give me a big hug and whisper in my ear, "You're doing God's work, son. Keep it up." Makes the hair stand up on the back of that boat ways. I mean, yeah. Yeah. This isn't about religion. not about the devil or angels or any rest of that crap. It's about a common capability that all human beings have. It's the only way we have been able to take the world over. The saber-tooth tigers didn't get the world. The cave bears didn't get the world. No predator on this planet got the word the world. We did. And we don't have long nails. extra hair, big teeth. We're not savage to that degree. How do we do it? Because we have an early warning system built right into us. It's a survival mechanism. And the army has known that for a long time. All right? You know, they a guy walks point and he always comes home with his team. Everybody wants him walking point. You understand? Yeah, totally. In combat, it comes out right away and a police in a in a police uh you know, like a police office somewhere where the detectives and the people on beat do their work. They know who those guys are that they send them to kick the door in. Yeah. The good luck charms. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And firemen, same thing. A fireman is goes into a building to fight a fire, he's got to be able to sense when he has to get the hell out before the building collapses on him. And they all do. It's like they just know, inherently know. I even met a surgeon that knew how to do something that was incredible. So there are certain people that just follow their gut and and they're really really good at what they do. You know, I wanted to ask you because I haven't had I've had a few moments in my life where I feel like I've had those happen and and there was one that uh it was like uh my oldest when he was two years old and uh at our old house we had a a cement landing pad with stairs going up to our front door. Yeah. And just for whatever reason that day he was walking and he'd been climbing stairs for a while and it was me and my wife and he was between us and for some reason we were we were starting to walk up the stairs together and I just like we're walking up and I just stop and I look and I just and I look down at him and then like two seconds later he trips and starts falling back with his head towards and I and I and I just went I didn't even think I just I went down I caught him right with the back of his head and in his back and just He didn't he didn't not he wasn't upset at all cuz he didn't get hurt at all. I knew he was going to fall. Yeah. Like five seconds before he fell. I just knew. And it's an early warning system. It was un I I've never I just I said that's what is it Spidey sense? I like couldn't I didn't have any words for it. You know that's provable in a lab. Yeah. Yeah. What they what they can do is they can wire uh put a wire to this. Just tape it to this finger. That's the ring finger. tape the other wire to the index finger and that's sent to a uh a computer and what the computer does is the computer reads the galvonic skin response off the fingers. Oh, okay. And compares the two and and gives you an average. And what it looks like in the computer is this. Okay. Now, if a surprise is going to happen, like if somebody walks up behind you, does that and you jump. Okay. What happens on that that thing? It goes spikes and then dies off slowly. Okay. Because it's a surprise. Yep. What nobody knows before we started doing research on this is about one and a half seconds to two seconds before the exact same thing happens. Only you almost can't see it. They can measure a spike a mini spike it. Yeah, it's a mini one of these only. It's very very small and it's always a second and a half, two seconds per hour. Wow. People can actually learn to feel that. Okay. We even came up with an idea. You get a couple people on the front seat of a truck in a war zone and you wire them through a pair of gloves. You just put the gloves on while you're driving and they're wearing a helmet that's got four little red LEDs up front. And as you're driving down the road, if those LEDs light up, you lock your foot on the brake as fast as you can and the IED goes off in front of you. No way. Not to your side. Yeah. Do you think the military would institute that? No. That's crazy not to they That's more technology introduced into the combat area and they just won't do it. It's like uh during Vietnam. Well, it seems to come out during life and death like like very extreme or more or maybe that's when we perceive it more or we have no choice but to perceive it. It's when you don't you don't have any time to make a call. Go to your library book. Yeah. Talk to somebody else who knows. You have to make a decision in that instant and that decision making is reinforced by that little bump. Do you think it would differ if you're gambling? If you're playing cards and do I can I hit or not hit bust? Some gamblers are very good at winning and the reason why is because they are entrained to that that win that high of the win. Now, the one question that's never been proven one way or the other because they they don't spend the money on the research is over time does the human body get complacent about it or acclimated to it? I don't think so because I have never acclimated to it. I will tell you I'm one of the best in the world in sensing it. So, uh, no, it it still works for me because the same things that can hurt me can still hurt me. Yeah. Okay. If if you know walking into a cave, this instinctively is the place that that 1600 lb monstrosity standing 13 feet tall is going to come back here to sleep tonight. I'm not being going to be in that cave. Well, that never goes away, right? Okay. You will sense that every time you go in the wrong cave. So, no research and and I could say this. I'm the only remote viewer that actually spent from when I got out of Stargate in the Army and retired. I went straight into Stanford Research Institute International. I was there the whole time until they shut the lab down at Stanford and moved it to Science Applications International Corporation. I was fired at Stanford and hired by SIC. The end of the project in 1995 when the CIA terminated it, they closed the SEIC lab and I was immediately hired by a laboratory for fundamental research in Palo Alto. Yeah. and they continued tasking me up until two years ago. So I I've got 48 years of this stuff. Yeah, I've been doing this stuff for 48 years and I I com I started my own business and with my wife, she's an astrologer and we started our company called Intuitive Intelligence Applications back in 1985. It's still incorporated Virginia and I've given aid and assistance to I don't know how many major corporations and companies, investment firms, police department, CEOs like that like Oh, yeah. What are what is a non uh life-threatening type of example like rather than army military? There are none. Oh, see if I work for a CEO. Here's the thing. When I started my my company, I guarantee total anonymity to my clients. Sure. I never talk about them, their company, where they're located, anything. Yeah. Okay. So, everything I do is by word of mouth advertising. That CEO talks to another CEO or CFR. Unbelievable. And the reason why is many of these companies are publicly owned. Yeah. If they found out the CEO is working with a psychic consultant, their job is toast. Yeah. Right. Even though I can improve their profit margin by 20 25%. Sure. I give them ideas that they never in a million years would have thought of. Can you give a a a whitewashed example? Like is it kind of like should we use this material instead of this material or should we go into this market? One of the messiest one of the messiest things in the world is mining. Okay, there's a number of companies in the in America and and the rest of the world who mind what what's called fascia stone. This is stone they put on the face of banks, museums, that sort of thing. Uh some of it's uh granite of specific colors, some of it's sandstone, some of it just a across the complete commanding uh it's many colors as you can think. It's out there. Finding it is a whole different matter. Oh. So if you if you have a place where you're seeing it on the ground in gravel because people have been crushing it with their feet, so you know it's there and it's on a farm and that farm comes up for sale. Where is it on a 2,000 acre farm? Wow. You don't know. Yeah. But if you go in and and you're going to pay $4 million for a 2,000 acre farm. If you're gonna pay that kind of money, you got to go in and core sample to figure out where it might be and how much of it. Is it worth the buy? As soon as you do that, it just went to 7 million. Yeah. Okay. Well, I work for companies that do faces stone more than one. And everywhere I said it was, what the overburden was, how difficult it would be to be removed. I put all that in an engineering report. It looks like it came from a mining professional and they've used it to borrow money at banks to buy the farm and mine it. And I've been never been wrong. So, and and wow, just buying it outright makes them a profit. And I tell them whether or not they're going to get a really serious problem from their local neighbors, if they're gonna have to fight in court to open the mine, what they'll have to do expense wise to do the actual mining, like put up dirt BMS, plant trees so people can't see it, all that kind of stuff. And yet at the very end, what they do is they just try to find a buyer who will take it off their hands when they when they're done, when they're taking everything out that they want. Sure. I asked I asked one of the CEOs I was working for. I said, "Why do you do that? Why don't you go in there, put sand around the rock pit you just created, call it a beach, put in sidewalks, uh, fire hydrants, uh, septic, water, all that stuff. Break it up into 5 acre plots. Rearrange it if you want with your big mining bulldozers, right? And put it on the market." They made more money that way than they did with the stuff they took out of the ground, right? And he said, "Why haven't I been doing that all along?" I said, "Because you got bad managers." It's like, and in one one place I work for. They went through all this. We had made so much profit in four months after I was hired. They flew me in a private plane to the party. So, I'm at the party. We're all drinking martinis and these giant cigars, you know, everybody's celebrating. And the CFO comes over and he he's at a martini and he takes me by the army. He said, "I got a question for you." He pulls me aside. He says, "We used your report to borrow the money for what we did, and I'd like to know where you got your engineering degree." I said, "I'm sorry. I don't have an injury injury." Oh. He goes away. Half hour later, he shows up. Now he's drunker and he pulls me aside. He's Yeah. And he says, "It's got to be a geology degree, right?" And I said, "No, I told you I don't have a degree." He goes away, comes back. Now he's he's abs He's stumbling. He almost can't stand up by himself. How did how did you do what you do? And I said, I'm a psychic. And he turns the color of that white wall over there, flops down in the chair and looks at me like he can't even speak. So I go over to the CEO and I tapped him on the shoulder. He's talking to someone. He goes, "Yes, what? I had to out myself to your CFO. I hope that's okay." Ah, he'll get over it. Don't worry about it. So, couple hours later, we're pumping coffee. Nobody wants to get a ticket going to the hotel and we're all run out the door and the CFO comes over. Now, he's absolutely stone cold sober. Straight straight. Looks angry. Grabs me by the arm and jerks me into a side room. He says, "I got one more question for you before you leave." I said, "What? Can you do that with stock? Yeah. I mean, and and he's a friend and I've had him a friend now for 25 years. He's changed three companies. Incredible. Yeah. That that is Yeah. Part of that that's that's what I wonder as well. Not from like you don't strike me as a very greedy person or anything like that. No, I have a straightforward just like any other consultant. But it feels like you could use that rather than being a consultant. You could buy stocks or buy land that you know has the right materials in it. I have I had a guy come up to me and he said, "I've done a lot of research for 10 years and there's a missing uh a missing box stolen from uh Wells Fargo back in 18 something or other full of gold coins. The thing took three people to put it on the stage. Coach, I think I know where they buried it and I've done all this research on it and I can give you the exact area. And he said, "What I need is if I tell you that area, can you go out there and and like scope it out, dows it or whatever and find it?" And I said, "What's the area?" And he told me, he said, "We could split 50/50." And I said,"Wh I got all the information now. Why should I split 5050?" And he turned all these colors and I said, "It's okay. I'm not going to help you. I don't do treasure." But think before you give the answers to people. Yeah. It's like, and I don't do treasure hunting because you agree to do a treasure hunt and within 10 minutes you get a phone call. Find it yet? Find it yet? That drive you crazy. Yeah. And that I don't care, right? Yeah. It's not what you want to do. What I care about is the high I get when I find a missing child. Sure. You find them alive that it's a high you just walk around with for three months. It's when you get in an argument or a difficult thing with the local sheriff or police captain or something that doesn't believe in psychic functioning and you tell them where the kid is and they don't believe you and you go home and the next day they found the sneakers or something at that location, they'll arrest you because that's the only way you can know. And if you don't have an alibi, you know how you look more guilty than innocent. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And and I've gotten in trouble with uh uh deputy directors of large intelligence agencies who wanted help on their personal things. I said, "No, I can't do that." And it turns out that I give them advice like uh let's say I'm going to give you for instance, okay? Uh, I have a neighbor. He's so distraught. He can't eat. He's get He's losing weight. He can't sleep. His wife disappeared. She has Alzheimer's. Alzheimer's. And she's in this rest home. And she just vanished one day. And they can't find her. You need to help me help my neighbor. I said, deputy director, one of the agencies saying that, "Well, you know, this is a black project. I can't do that." Oh, yeah. You could do this just a little bit. No, I can't. Well, then I told him I knew somebody that could. So, you're going to have to tell him you won't. I said, "Okay, I'll meet you Saturday at uh I don't know, IHOP in this city." And uh so I go there 9:00 Saturday morning and I get out of the car. I'm walking in. They're already there. And he introduced me to his neighbor. When I shook his hand, I knew he'd done his wife. So now I got to eat blueberry pancakes for an hour. Oh my. Talk my way out of it and then call him later and say, "Look, I think this guy killed his own wife. You need to check out his back." When I said that, it's a euphemism. You check check him out, you know. Well, he thought I said look in his backyard. So he calls the state police. The state police are suspicious of the husband anyway. Okay. They show up with the warrant they've been sitting on, dig up the backyard, and find mama under the patio. No. So, they arrest the guy, right? And his neighbor who knew where the body was because he probably helped bury it. So, now I got a deputy director who's in prison with this guy waiting for his trial. And he calls me on the phone and says, "I'm going to out you if you don't get me out of here. Yeah. What? What do you do then? What do you do? Call his boss who calls his boss and now you're dealing at like way up there at the top and he shows up at work on Monday and you got to think, wow, what is the head of the state police thinking? You know, I hope my name wasn't like mentioned in there anyway. But, you know, it's it's the other problem is you got people who hang up a shingle, they're psychics. They hear about remote viewing. So, they become professional remote viewers because it validates their psychic functioning. Yeah. In some way, and they they put up a shingle, I look for missing people. Okay. So they get get a couple jobs like that looking for missing kids and one out of five works or maybe four out of five, I don't know, maybe they're really good psychics. The problem is they don't do due diligence in terms of the laws of the country and thinking about exactly what it is they're doing. M. So, I was talking to this one psychic and I really liked her a lot. She was a good psychic and she changed over to calling herself a remote viewer. So, I said, "Why did you do that?" You know, I have great respect for you as a psychic. So, she changed back and then she said, "But I'm going to start helping people find missing people and stuff." So I said, "Please don't don't just jump into that, you know, be careful." Yeah. So she's out helping this family look for their missing uncle. He went out for cigarettes or something that didn't come. So they're looking for like a week and she calls me and she says, "You know, I'm getting this weird feeling about this." And I said, "Now I'm going to tell you what you should have known beforehand. If you think you're going to look for somebody, do it through the police because the family member you're poking under a trailer with looking for a body might be the person to put him there. And she went, "What?" I said, "Yeah, that's maybe where you're getting your hanky feeling." So, it's like people don't know what the hell they're doing. They do it because they think, "Oh, it'll make me famous or I can make a lot of money or whatever." And they just don't understand the risk involved. It's uh how can you can you tell the difference between because I in this space of being psychic, it seems like anybody could just say I am and if you don't know results and that's that's one of the problems. Yeah. So it could be the industry. You could have very valid um people who have the ability and it and it could be a wash in a sea of people who don't just making some shekels, right? And so how can you tell? Can you tell when someone has it? You can't tell. Can't tell you whatever they tell you. All I can say is this. Remote viewing has a single pro protocol. It it's a scientific protocol was written in 1972. Okay? It's never changed. And that protocol demands that whoever is the psychic, that's the person being the remote viewer, whoever's in the room with that remote viewer and whoever tasked it by bringing the envelope in or whatever the information's contained, all those people have to be completely blind. See, four people, it doesn't matter. You could have 10. Everybody has to be blind. Yeah. Okay. And so so the pro the protocol demands being totally blind. And there's a number of reasons for that. The primary reason is most psychics know something about the problem and they're working on it. So right there it's a problem. They're in their own way. Yeah. They're they're in their own way. They're adding stuff that's logic and calling it psychic. They're getting psychic information that's wrong and they're playing it right in because it fits. All these mistakes. The the problem is that does a huge disservice to somebody who's completely blind and doing it the right way. The primary reason is if you do something like find a body, find a missing person, solve a murder, whatever, whatever it is. If you're completely blind and come up with this like out of whole cloth, you just realize philosophically that you're better than what most people think a human is. In other words, humans are magical beings. We're able to take logic and you know the normal everyday stuff and mix it with magic and come up with answers that can't be gotten any other way. And you understand that that is true. Absolutely true. So you continue to operate in a blind way and you get better and better and better because you're now growing in your philosophic understanding for it. It's like weightlifting. Yeah. For that area of your Yeah. Exactly. And the other part of it is you you don't think you have this ability anymore. You know you have it because the only way it can work is that way. There's no other option. But if you get hints right there, you just became static. You're never going to get any better. It's never going to improve. It's never going to work. as soon as you think it needs some of your logic or another dash, right? Or somebody giving you the hint to get you on the right track. You almost want to bring it to you in a closed envelope and go here and then leave I want I don't even touch it unless it's completely blind, right? And then that introduces you to a third problem which is really rare but it's interesting. You have to develop a good moral ethical baseline for yourself. Yeah. What to what degree are you willing to go or not go? To what degree are you willing to take a risk? People don't realize that when you start dealing in murder problems and things like that, you you're at risk just like any cop would be. The second problem is uh when you uh reach that that level and you're you're playing in that that stuff um there's a a morality issue or an ethical issue. For instance, if someone's at their 18th birthday and they get up, they blew the canas out on the cake, they get up and walk out the front door and the parent never parents never see them again. And the parents come to you and say, "You got to find them for me. You can't. It's against the law. The law says they're of their own adulthood when they hit 18 and 1 second." Okay. The other problem has to do with uh invasion of privacy. Yeah. I uh you could read somebody's password. I don't I was in Budapest, Hungary with Dr. May and we were asked to be on uh television on the six o'clock prime time news because everybody wanted to know what we were there for. So, we're on there. We're talking about remote viewing and all the rules. And the the guy running the the news agency there that's got us on stage is really famous. He's just a really big talent in Hungary. So he right in the middle of talking about remote viewing, he whips a frame picture out, puts it in front of me, and says, "Can you tell me where this guy is right now? What he's doing?" And I said, "Yeah, I could." And he said, "Does that mean you know him?" I said, "No, I don't know him. I could, but I'm not going to." He says, "Why not?" I said, "Because our constitution in America guarantees privacy. I'm not going to invade this man's privacy because I don't know who he is. I don't know why you're asking me that. We got arguing on national television. I got up and walked off the stage. And it was like true embarrassment to this guy. I said, "I'm not going to play that game." Yeah. Okay. So, I come back to America. Month later, we go back to Budash because we have a professor there who's doing some experiments for us. We go through customs. When I came out of customs, this professor runs over. Joe, Joe, and he airhug lifts me off the ground. He said, "I'm so glad to see you got through customs." I said, "Why wouldn't I get through customs?" He said, "Remember the guy that was trying to get you to describe where this guy was?" Well, that guy in the frame, the picture, is our new president. He'd just been elected. And the guy heading up the assassination club, the five guys that were out to kill him was sitting right next to you asking, "Where is he now? What's he doing?" If you would answer that question and he being killed, unbelievable. You never would have got through customs. You'd be in prison. So, you don't know. You don't know why you're being asked something. Yeah. So, you have to be good enough to know should I or should I not be doing this? Does your does having an ethic or belief in say, you know, I'm not going to help somebody kill somebody. Um, would that prevent it in a blind situation as well? Like if you have that and I bring you but you don't know, but I'm bringing you the photo of the guy in an envelope. You're blind to it. would you not be able to or would you get a bad feeling about it or But if you from the get-go the entire time only work completely blind, your probability of knowing you're being asked to do something illegal is going to come across big time. You you would start feeling red flags, which is why I didn't say what I could have said. Wow. Um I was in Japan. I did uh 14 two-hour specials in Japan. And in the middle of one of them, they took a this absolutely gorgeous woman out of this panel and brought her out and introduced me to her. I didn't know who she was. It turns out she's one of the most famous single female actors in Japan. Introduced me to her. She's 22 years old. And they said, "How old are you at the time?" uh 56 maybe. All right. So I said, uh, nice to meet you and everything. And she's smiling and and, uh, the guy that's running the show says, "Can you tell us where she was 8:00 on Saturday night?" And I said, "Sure." When I said that, I saw fear in her eyes. It sensed it. It she just broadcast it. So I'm thinking, wow, there's a reason for that. So I'm thinking about it while they're talking about me doing this. So lo and behold, if I didn't fail, which was totally deliberate. Mhm. And I saw her relax when I failed. And I looked at her and I smiled and I said, "Look, I'm really sorry it didn't work." And I bowed to the audience. I take full responsibility for the failure. It just didn't work this time. Hour later, we're done shooting the show. It's on tape. I'm in the green room. Knock on the door. So, I open the door and she says, "Can I speak to you privately for a minute?" I said, "Sure." So, she comes into the green room. Everybody else leaves. and she gets down on her knees and puts her hands on my foot and bows and says, "I know you knew where I was." And I said, "Of course I do." But I wouldn't have told anybody, not in a million years. She was visiting a son who's like three years old. She had him out of wedlock and her entire career would have gone right down the tubes. if I had said where she was. In fact, he has uh um not ADHD, the the problem that a lot of people are having. Autism. Yeah. Yeah. He's autistic. Oh, yeah. And and so so it's not about it's not about um knowing just the problems answer. It's about knowing when you might hurt somebody, not hurt somebody. Knowing when you should, when you shouldn't. Knowing the laws of their laws and our laws. Usually, if you follow the laws of our constitution, you're protecting everybody you meet because there are few other countries that have it. That's right. So, and it's not about it's never about money. It's about ego more than anything else. So, in order to be a world flash remote viewer, you got to kill your ego. If you don't, you never going to see that day. It just isn't going to happen. So, you know, you you as much, you know, I train this here at the institute and and as much as I teach this, you'd be surprised how many people think, "Oh, no. I don't have to follow all those rules. You know, I'm psychic. I can do anything I want. You know, they get static right there. That's as far as they're ever going to go because they don't because they don't follow those rules. They don't come to understand even with all those rules, you can do whatever you want to do as a human being. We human the human animal is more inventive, more constructive, more intelligent than any other animal on the planet. It's amazing. Um, people don't remember when they were nothing but psychic. At some point, humans lived in very small tribes and we had no language. All we could do was grunt point. Do you think it was pre- language? That was my thought. And I will tell you, we were psychic as hell then because when six guys out of a family tribe circle a very dangerous animal in a hunt to kill it, they had to know what each one was doing in that second and know it perfectly. when all the women were hunting and gathering the uh root uh foods and things in the field of you know sweeping grass and brush and the saber-tooth tiger snuck in there. Every single woman gathering out here in a group, all their heads would come out at the same time and they'd all look at the direction of the tiger and they'd all start backing away into a group where they could protect each other. it. That's not that's not surprise. That's how we are still here. And that started hundreds of thousands of years ago. Now, the problem came in when strangers had to meet strangers. So, you got a family tribal unit that's maybe 15 people maxed, old to birth, and you're living in a cave. and you meet another family that's group that's in got some problems, but you invite them in because they need help. And basic human reality is we're empathetic to other humans, which again another gift we have that many animals don't have. So we invite them in. So, we're all sitting around the fire and the guy sitting there is looking at they're looking at each other in their rotten point and doing what they do. And the guy starts ugling my spear. He really likes my spear. And then he looks at my woman. I kill him right on the spot because I know what he's planning. Well, you can't have that either because then you're going to be wiping each other out. Yeah, that's right. So, mother nature does what mother nature does. It she installs a small filter. Maybe it's in the colossum or something where data is exchanged from right and left brain or right and left hemispheres. And that filter is just hard enough to prevent absolutely no. not easy enough to tell us when we're in danger. It just it just starts falling away as a tool that communicates perfectly into a tool that just guarantees survival. And I think that's how it works. I can't prove that. Sure. Of course, but I'm a remote viewer. I can go look at it. Yeah. I was wondering how does that differ from remote viewing or out of body? I mean remote viewing and out of body well because they're sort of used the the difference is huge and in remote viewing now you know let's say I'm doing remote viewing for intelligence purposes and they want to know how some guy encrypted his messages. So, they show me a picture of the guy and they say, uh, and they're not actually telling me all this. What they do is they put it in an envelope, uh, describe how Mr. So and So, and Crips's best. Yeah. Mr. X, whatever. They might even have a picture written there on the back of this picture, but it's in an envelope and he can't see it. So, they say, "Tell me everything I need to know about what's in the envelope." And I get an image of this guy. So I describe him. And as I'm describing him, I say like, "Well, I think he's a spy." They say, "Why do you?" My monitor says, "Who's who's blind as I am?" Says, "Why do you say that, Joe? Why? Why do you think he's a spy?" So, because I see him encrypting stuff. And uh my monitor now says encryption. H that's interesting. How do you think he's doing that? Now he's being as psychic as I am. He's asking me for the question. Yeah. Yeah. He's asking me for the answer. Yeah. You understand how it works? Okay. So, let's say let's say we're doing all that. And in the middle of that, he says something like, "Well, who does he work with? You're attacking a tiger. Yeah. You're you're you guys are moving to Yeah. How how who does he work with?" And I have a direct connection right there from him. to the guy he works with. And then I get a connection from him to his sons, both of them. One's in MIT, one's in Stanford, and I know what their masters are that are working for one. Everything's interconnected. It's like a this huge line chart where every little detail is connected to some other details and you can follow that chart that line anywhere you want to take it. That's remote viewing. Out of body and in the past and future time is you can go forward and back. Well, it's real it's really easy to go into the past. Okay. The reason why is when you see something happening in the past, conceptually speaking, we know why because we understand what has to happen to make this occur. So we understand the concepts that are in our past. When you go in the future, you don't have to go too far in. It could be a couple hours in some cases and you'll see something and you go, "How in the hell is that happening?" we don't we don't have access at least understandable access to why it's happening. It's like the Okay. So, it's it's kind of like if if in 1975 we have a remote viewer in a room and we target that remote viewer on a another room in Sylvania Corporation at a certain date and time uh a week in the future. And what he starts reporting on is a tube of vibratory light uh sending out a beam of light and it's eating through 4 in of stainless steel. You're nuts. You're crazy. That's not possible. You understand? Yeah. It It's like, okay, we'll just use remote viewing to figure out how a UFO works. No, you can't because that is maybe a half million years ahead of us conceptually. So, you can get some ideas about it maybe, but oh, it's just too far to go. And for like this example maybe of how did this agent do his encryption? You're probably remote viewing him a couple months ago writing that letter or Right. Exactly. And you're watching him use a modified transistor radio with an extra switch on it. Yeah. And so you're watching him from a few years ago. Yeah. Yeah. So, and I'm sorry, but so out of body would be out of body. Now, out of body is here's a picture of a building, Joe. And I can speak to this because I spent 14 months of training here with Robert Monroe because after my near-death experiences, I was having spontaneous out of bodies. So DoD hired Bob Monroe to train me how to control to see if I could obtain information on an intelligence target. So and and out of body is present. You you're Yeah. It's like right in the moment. Yeah. It's like being there in reality. Okay. So they hand me a picture of a building and they can't tell me anything. They just hand me the building and then the instructions are find the building. Go to the third floor. Pass through the bank vault door that it has there. It's not a bank, but pass through the that kind of vault. Go to the southwest corner. Look at the object on the table. Push your face into it. Wake yourself up back in body and draw it to scale and tell us what it does. Okay. So, right there. Two and a half week. Two and a half weeks of multiple out of bodies to find the building cuz I don't know where the hell it is. You're flying all over the world. Yeah. So, I find the building. Well, intent. It's not as bad as it sounds. Intent conquers everything. Intent leads you. Your intent gets you to what you need to do. Okay. Expectation for outcome gives you the answer. So intent gets me through the building, but it takes four out of bodies to do it in five days. So you know, the first two out of bodies I'm backing out of my body and I back into a crystal chandelier. Oh man, what that does? Oh wow. You know, because you've never been in a crystal chandelier before. It's distracting in a great way. It's like, oh yeah, everybody should have this experience wise, right? But it's that kind of problem. So you you get to the building, you go to third floor, you pass through the vault door, you go to the table, you push face in, you wake yourself up, you draw to scale, you label, you label the parts as best you can. Roll it up, put in tube, mail it to whoever's t you. They show up a week later and what they want to know is where did you take high energy physics? Well, I didn't take high energy physics. Okay. Who do you know that's a high energy physicist? Well, I don't know any high energy I Dr. May is my one of my best friends, but he's a low energy physicist. Where do you check your library books out? About then you get the idea they think you're lying. Yeah. That you never went out of body. You never did all that. Now it they're pumping you and it's like, okay, they go away. You give them two letters to check your two libraries and they go away. After they leave, I'm sitting there steaming. I'm I'm upset because of all the months of work it took to get there. Uh, and I started thinking, you know, I could take this copper wire thing I drew, crunch it down the light fiber, rebuild it inside an acrylic block, plastic block that has coolant running through it, beef it up to about 10,000 times the speed it's operating at now. It'd be the size of a pack of cigarettes and do the same thing. Only I got one problem. I need a high-speed switch that carries an enormous amount of energy. Takes a month to find one by going around different electronic places. You know those big banks of lights they turn on over football fields. Yeah. If you just snap the breaker, all the city goes black because of the draw. Well, they have these devices embedded in them to to bring those lights up slowly. Maybe that'll work. Stick that in a drawing. So, I redraw the thing to scale. But all of that information you just said was not like your logic and ration thing. It's all my logic and ration based on what I put my face in. What you saw and then you applied here's how I could act. You had just ideas. Here's how I could improve it. Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. Yeah. Okay. So you kind of learned what this thing was. So I Yeah. So I like Oh, I have ideas, right? I know what it does. And so I redraw it. It's now size of a pack of cigarettes. You can drop it in your coat pocket where before it was like this. Two men had to carry it. Two box. Yeah. Right. And it it's way faster, cleaner. It does probably more than it should. And I draw a picture to scale. I label everything, wrap it up, put it into tube, mail it to the same people, and they show up the next day and tear the top off my drafting table and take all my drafting books and tell me to sign all these NDAs that never ever draw it or talk about it again. And then they never come back and I get an order from DoD, don't go out of body anymore. Get an order from the DoD to not go out of body. Yeah, don't go. I'm guessing you have not followed those body. I'm guessing you didn't follow do Yeah. Okay. So, why did they ask you to do it in the first place, right? That you got now you know. We asked you to know, Dr. You know, we asked you to I was asked I was asked once by a specific agency. I was asked, now this agency has never tasked us or tasked me. I'll put it that way. I don't know if they've tasked other people, but they've never tked me. They came and asked if um can you uh see, can you track a spy? No matter what the spy does over, let's say a year and a half, can you track them? And I said, "Sure. Piece of cake." That's exactly what I said to them. So they said, "Okay, here's here's your targeting material." And they hand me a card just like a small card you would give anybody with your information on it. This card has a single number across the back. It's a social security number of the agent. That's it. We'll call you three times over the next, I don't know, six to 12 months. Whenever we call you, we're going to ask you where this person is and you tell us, right? And you'll know right away like, you know, you don't you don't have to go get in the zone or something. No, you do have to get in the zone. Oh, you do? Okay. But that was the that was the challenge. Okay. So, I put it in my wallet. The first time he'd called me it was like 1:00 in the morning. I was visiting a psychologist friend in downtown San Francisco. He was renovating a uh an old Victorian and uh he woke me up. He got a phone call. We go in the kitchen. He gives me the phone. He makes some coffee. He pours coffee for both of us. Uh, I call the people back and I said, "Uh, this guy's like right in the middle of a wind generating form. I I see stansions, you know, props going around. They're all interconnected electronically." And he's parked at the bottom of the central tower and uh I'm pretty sure it's the uh and I name back then I knew what it was. I named the one in San Francisco Bay Area. Oh, yeah. Yeah, down there. Yeah, I can't remember what they call it now, but uh and I hang up. It turns out I only got a 99% for that one because I said absolutely nothing wrong. Everything I said was absolutely true, but I left out the color of the rental car. Okay, that's the truth. Now, some months go by, I get another call. I can't remember when it was, but So, I'm working on this target, this location, and I'm like, no matter what I do, I can't draw this thing. It's so complicated. I try to draw it like six or seven times. I'm crumpling the paper up, throwing it away. I'm starting over. I finally said, "Oh, you know, if you were standing in this target where this guy's standing, nobody could draw it. If you were standing there with him, you couldn't draw it. It's the energy producing end of the um of the acceleration uh particle accelerator. The particle accelerator. Oh, yeah. At Stanford. Yeah. Right. All right. Well, guess where he was standing? Exactly where I said. But you wouldn't believe the drawing I did. It was like this very complicated system with a long stem and an eyeball on the end. Yeah. I said, "You can't draw it. If you if you were there, you can't draw it." Yeah. And so absolutely nailed it by just telling him where he was. So time goes by and then the next one I get um it's a T-shaped building. This Oh, this is like middle of the night, 3:00 a.m. or something. I just call you T-shaped building. Why are they calling you at 3:00 a.m.? Because they're testing me. Can you Where's the spy gonna be at 9 in the morning drinking coffee? If you have too many beers, does it affect you? Like if like Yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Because you have to hold your focus, right? So, you have to at least be awake enough to like hold your focus on a target, right? Yeah. Okay. I mean, you got to It takes a lot of mental power, work. You burn a lot of calories. No, it's it's the same same amount of work as any investor would make if he was sitting trying to figure out where to invest money. It's like sitting at your desk doing a lot of work. So anyway, T-shaped building, top four, seven floors. It's referred to as a building, you know, letter A building. Top floor center, big picture window. I would call it the director's office. He's got his feet crossed upon the director's desk. He's smoking a illegal Cuban cigar out of the second drawer down on the right. Then I draw I draw the building and then I said, "Well, this ain't going to tell me anything because there's a lot of T-shaped building." So I filled in all the rest around it and I said, "It's a big lab complex. It's got treeine street on this side. And it's got big parking area here. D. So, not one thing I drew is accurate except for the T-shaped building. But anybody that sees my drawing says, "Oh, that's the West Gate Lawrence Livemore Laboratories where they build atomic weapons." That's where he was in the director's office smoking a cigar in the west end of the launch laboratories. That's the headquarters. So, did that agent know? Was he a part of the testing? He was part of the test. So, he would go that he he knew he was trying to pick places I could never tell. Got it. Okay. So, they came back after three three out of three. And they said, "Okay, you you did fairly well on these." Yes. So, what we'd really like to know is what is he doing? So, I put him in the desert working on a a certain kind of system that's hidden in a big van like a tractor trailer van. So I drew it with the tractor trailer van around it and then I drew it separately and said this is what it does, this is how it does it, etc., etc. And so I gave them a lot of instruction with maybe four drawings and they gave all my material to an independent engineering company and they came back and said what it was he was building, what frequency it was and what it was doing exactly and that they could build it themselves and it's exactly our shape right. So they gave us big chunk of money for research. Did we ever hear from them again? No, they don't want to know this. Why? This No, it breaks everything. This is not Yeah, it breaks all the rules. It breaks all the Now you got But you see that there's all these people claiming to be remote viewers now. Yeah. I couldn't do this in my first 10 years. Oh. But I've been doing this for 48 years. So it's not like So you do get better at it in that way. Oh, you get, like I said, if you understand, you start out, you start out following the rules, you're completely blind. The better you get, the more astounded you are at the capacity of a human being and fulfill. We are so much more than our physical presence. It's off the charts. You almost have to get the belief in you of how powerful you are. You got to know you can do it. You got to know you're capable of it first. And without healers, laying on of hands to heal someone, they know they could do it. Some healers. They're rare. They're very far few between, but they've been doing it for 35 years. and they know they've gotten to the point to understand that that's what one human being can do for another. I'm telling you, human being human is special. It is so special it isn't even funny. I mean, it's like scary. They're afraid of that. Everybody's afraid of that. You're either doing the work of the devil or you're doing an angel's work. But either one you shouldn't be doing. Yeah. You know why? Because it takes power away from those who run churches and things that say, "No, you need us to tell you how special you are." It's a direct It's a direct assault on systems that have been developed and established over thousands of years to manage and manipulate people for power. It's a terrible thing. And that's that's what goes on here. If if you're like breaking into a bank vault, is are there ever other remote viewers that you see that are like like corrupt? Do you know what I mean? I have never seen another another viewer or never interacted with a human being that I've seen there that knew I was there. Okay, that that's a significant problem with this. it. Everything's vulnerable. Yeah. There are no secrets. Have So, could two remote could two um not remote viewers, but uh go out of going out of body. Could could two people go out of body to the same place and like high five? No. Never see each other. You never That isn't doesn't happen. Doesn't happen as far as I'm concerned. I I mean it's never happened for me. Okay. Sure. So, I don't know how anyone could say it does. Yeah. Uh, and if they did, I don't know how they could say they could prove it. Sure. Yeah. You need a third guy to also go and see them. Yeah. Well, there was a third guy there that saw the two of them, but they never saw each other. Yeah, that's right. Uh, no, they there's so many things that can't see. One of the big problems now I I spent 35 years in the labs being studied. One of the significant problems is one of the very first things we found out is the the brain is not just the mind. The the mind is elsewhere because it it's provable. Everybody thinks if you say mind, you have to talk about what's in the bone box. No. Throughout the entire nervous system are brain cells. You got brain cells in your wrist, your elbow. They make decisions and do things for you you don't even realize they're doing. Like when you're uh you're competitive, you're a competitive tennis player and you put that s that last minute snap forward rule on the ball because you decided to do it right when you were there. That's not enough time to go from here to your wrist. Yeah. It's already there. It's already decided and it's going to do it for you. So there's there's that kind of thing going on. So and then you study the mind and the brain and and over instructions and interactions and things you suddenly discover that yes sometimes the command is there that makes it happen. But sometimes it happens and there's no command. Where did that occur? Okay. So there's a huge war that's been going on for quite a while and still is within the researchers area of mind and consciousness. Yeah, there two sides to it. One says no all of consciousness is here and when you die it dies and others you say no consciousness is completely separate from the body. It only temporarily interfaces to use the body. Okay. So, there's a lot of conflict there. And I've heard that before. Yeah. You they almost analogize it to like is the is the brain matter projecting the consciousness or is the whole being kind of like a radio antenna where it's being projected and it's playing a song out of that radio but it isn't the song. The song is coming is receiving the radio. So, and what's but then you start running into problems when you research it because you can take someone down in a bathosphere two miles and they can remote view from there as well as anywhere else. But there's no way to transfer information through two miles of salt water. Ain't going to happen. Only nutrinos can do that. And they could never carry the amount of information a remote viewing does. So that's a complication. The other complication becomes um I've worked in the labs for 30 plus years. So Dr. May will come up to me. We're we're really good friends. He'll come up to me and say, "Joe, I want to do a really important experiment on Monday. So get a lot of rest this weekend because when you come in Monday, we'll do that experiment." I just got the answer right. Right then. So how do you study that? because it becomes so automatic. You it you can't stop it. You can't make it not happen. There's no cause and effect kind of. Yeah, sort of. If you allow it. Yeah. But it's like I bump I will brush shoulders with somebody and get something. I can't do anything with it because it would be an invasion of privacy. I can't make decisions for somebody else's journey. So, I just have to like, oh, that's interesting and keep on. Yeah. How many of those I guess it's both, but you I guess you're getting you brush up against somebody and you get something or you focus and you get something. So, you can you can both get things passively except except in the one it's accidental and the other it's deliberate. And when it's deliberate, it's you just violated your ethics and morality. Yeah. If you're doing it Yeah. If you're doing something, but I mean the whole Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And and when I talk about this uh in presentations and talks in public, when I bring up ethics and morality, everybody kind of goes uh yawn, you know, but everybody in order to become the best human being they can ever be, no matter what it is they want to do, I making a ton of money even. In order to do that, they have to have a baseline of morality and ethics that they're willing to die for because every human being could be put in that position at any time. And so if you let's say you were put in the position of uh tell us what this person said or we kill you. Okay? And if you say what the person said to you, that person dies, what decision you're going to make. So you got to be prepared for that kind of thing. Yeah. Uh you got to know exactly what is beyond what is your feelings about if I protect another human being, what's that going to cost? And if it does, what's the continuation of that? You know, um I happen to think that no matter what you do, you can't destroy yourself as an entity. You just change clothes. Would another way of saying that be that your consciousness always exists sort of if you I call that your consciousness. I believe it does. It may exist under different rules and different formats, but Yeah. Uh, do you consider that a blessing or a curse? I think it's neither. It's what you do with it. It It's like um fairly recently um I found that I was I didn't know this, but I was doing work for a guy named uh uh Ron Bryant, who was the head of the physics department for Texas A&M. Okay. At uh College Station. He died last year unfortunately. But what he did is he sent three targets, particle questions on different particles through my wife to me and field envelopes. Particles on particles. Okay. Yeah. Questions or questions wanted to test whether or not I could actually describe what I was seeing. Oh, okay. Okay. So, I I was able to do that. All three I describe almost perfectly. So he sent me a question that dealt with a an energy an energy particle that struck the fly detector in the Utah desert back in 1991 at a specific time. And now they says it hit the detector. It's the only time incidentally in all of written history that this one particle it hit a detector. So they have no idea about any of it. Just that they captured all the output through the fly detector. So they know the energy. They know a lot of stuff about it from a physics standpoint, but they have no idea what it was, where it came from, or how it got here. So that was my fourth target. And when I gave him back, everything fit. They know all the data over here. And all the data agrees with what I described. And what it was is a particle traveling four times the speed of light. Came out of nowhere and just appeared in the fly detector. And he said for that to happen, it had to skip it had to skip all of the interactions that occurred since the beginning of reality, the Big Bang. So that what what that did, I'm going to tell you what that did. Please. He he came back to me with another target. And this time I knew that he was tasking me, but I didn't know what he was asking me. What he was asking me was um I'm trying to get this right in my head now. If [Music] um what he was asking me was if we were to look at the nucleus of this particle, what would it look like? That was a task. And so I went back and I said, "Well, no, in the in in physics terms, there's no nucleus, but in reality there is." And he and the way I explained it was uh if you were to take all the instrumentation for every instrument known to exist on the entire planet, put it all in a big room and play a beautiful melodic song or music using all his instruments. There's one instrument that you will never see. He said, "What's that?" I said, "The conductor." And he went, "Well, that would be the nucleus." I said, "Right. So everything's a shadow of the nucleus." And he said that this particle from an energy standpoint is so different that in order to see the nucleus, it would take a CERN react a CERN accelerator, you know, the big CERN acceler. Oh my. to blast it apart and it would literally destroy the nucleus to discover that. He said, "But you didn't change it at all. You just observed it. How did you do that?" Oh, is it? My answer was 10us 27. It's just impossibility. That's how far remote viewing can go. I didn't even know I was doing this. What? What? How much background in physics do you I have none that I have none. In fact, he asked permission to use that description in his textbook. Wow. I said, "Sure." Because he'd been trying to figure out how to talk about a nucleus that isn't there. That's great description. I couldn't figure out how to do that. Conductors. That's a great analogy. Yeah. Yeah. And and when I did the particles, the individual particles, um I was telling him he he said that I was telling him the n if the nuclear if the nucleus is the sun, the closest particle that and I drew the array, the particle A and I labeled it would be about the distance of Saturn. particle B would be the distance of the orc cloud, you know, that kind of thing. And he said from travel time in distance, it almost came out perfectly, right? You know, to match the data, so he and I when I finally met him, I met him at the University of Virginia at a restaurant across the street. I was introduced to him by another physics guy I know and uh I was surprised when he told me about all this stuff because I had no idea I was answering those kinds of questions. I was just trying to map things. Do you have opinions on uh other entities other conscious entities either like Yeah, I do. physical ones like Area 51 or well Area 51 is or different dimensions. The reason for Area 51 being off limits is they detonated somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 plus underground explosions using nuclear weapons. So if you want to walk through there, you're going to breathe trumium in the dust cloud and you'll be dead in six months. So that's why they keep people out. It it's a very dangerous place to be. Yeah. That's why the runway is so huge. The platform they build in there is so big. It's to cover it. You just pour concrete over it and that way you don't breathe it down. Yeah. Right. So that that's one good reason. Okay. Now it might be that they use that very good reason to hide. Another reason I I don't know. But Sure. And you've never uh asked uh out of body. Out of body? Well, not out of body, but I can tell you that. Yeah. From my remote viewing, I have been targeted on UFOs and UAPs and all that stuff numerous times. And there there are entities on board a lot of these vehicles, but they're not uh they're not aliens, they're robots. And I say that because people make an assumption that because something looks soft, acts soft, is soft, it must be a living entity. And and to a certain extent, it may be. But it's a robot. Yeah. They just make their robots different from the way we make ours. The only way to, in my opinion, the only way to be here from another star is to jump. One minute you're there, one minute you're here. Wormhole kind of thing. Well, not even that. No vehicle to get to the wormhole. Just jump. Boom. Boom. Now, that might be done interdimensionally. I don't know if it's that's possible or not, but it has to be true because otherwise you're going to spend thousands of years doing it any other way. It Yeah, it feels like that's not practical. It feels like there is some technological leap that has to happen or else you can't just ride a horse 50,000 miles to invent a car that can drive 50,000 miles, right? There has to has to be some other way. You can't just fly faster be the answer. I think the ones that that are possibly here, maybe they can't come themselves, but they could send a programmable robot. And it it kind of makes sense if you start looking at the grays in the way everybody talks about the grays. They literally have no mouth, the very tiny nose, which doesn't seem to be operable. Mhm. And uh they're wrapped up in the same skin suit all the others are. So I think they're robots. That's just my feeling. And they they do one job and they don't care what you feel about it. Yeah. Very robot robotike. Yeah. They're acting robotike like programs. So, um, however, having said that, I did one target one time that I'm pretty sure had an alien in it. And the reason I say that is because I was cut off immediately. Um, I got the briefest glimpse of like part of an arm and a hand and then cut off. You're He stopped you. Yeah. Or it stopped. I don't Oh, it stopped you. Yeah. From from I couldn't see anything else. All I got. It wasn't the person who you were telling it to that stopped you. It was the being that stopped seeing. Yeah. So, there are such things as psychic defenses. And he must have had psychic. Well, I wouldn't call it. How do we know it's a psychic defense, right? Maybe it's just a dimensional defense. We We don't know. But but I can tell you what I got was kind of interesting. Remember the old peace sign, the line down and then the wine above that from the war demonstrations and all that. Well, that's what I got after it was cut off. That's all I ever got targeting that vehicle. So, what does that represent? At my first thought was, oh, that's the old peace side. That didn't feel right. So I kept thinking about it and over time I've come to the conclusion it has nothing to do with peace. You know what it is? Took six months to figure it out. It's the inside and outside of an empty box. Corner of an empty box. And when I came to that conclusion I know it's probably right because I started seeing three blocks cubes multi-sided cubes all perfect cubes. three in different arrays stacked this way, that way, you know, all different configurations. I worked on that for maybe a year and came up with this concept that suddenly I remembered from when I was a baby. remember the three blocks she got as a kid and A B CDE E F on them and then the rest of the and then the numbers. That's what I think those are. As soon as I agreed in my head that that's what they were, I started getting them with symbols on them. So, I'm getting symbols now, which don't make any sense to me yet. Yet. Yeah. probably going to take 10 years, 20 years to figure that out. Um, but but I think it's a form of communication. I'm not sure yet. It's just what it is. Um, now what's interesting, um, that particular vehicle was captured by an overhead and it was doing close to 4,000 mph. was 300 ft across, flat as a pancake, made a 90° perfect right turn at 14,000 ft. Yeah. So that and that's the only one had alien on it. Yeah. I'm thinking, well, good thing it was alien because it was one of us, we'd be jello, right? It's a fair point. Um, so it but that's the only one I could come up with that I think there was one other, but I I think that was a robot, too, but it was a very small robot. This one crashed in the New Mexico desert next to a mine. It was a dry mine where the guy would fill buckets with dirt and take him to his house near LA and wash them out over weekends. and uh he heard a crash and there was a it happened behind him when he turned to look there was an aircraft auguring into the ground on fire and a disc coming straight at him juking all over the place. So they obviously had collided and when it got to his mind there was a like a cliff face and below the cliff was his mind his dry mind and and then uh some rocks and things and this thing hit the cliff clipped the cliff went over his mind and hit in the rocks and embedded there and he he ran over his story is he ran over there to see if he could help. He didn't know what it was. This is like in 1950 something. And so there was this like partially ripped off piece of metal and he started pulling on it and he said suddenly it just opened and he said about a 4ft jack rabbit came out of there and took off for the the desert. Just took off. And I'm thinking, what was that guy drinking? Or he goes out there and actually smokes some special weed. But um what he what he actually said in his in his re relating it is that he he went immediately broke off a piece, got in his car, drove back to LA, went to the LA Times and turned over the piece metal to them with the markings on it and they locked it in the safe, recorded it, and then the reporter got in the car with him and they went back and when they got back the thing was gone. The whole thing he said. Yeah. He said there were tracks pressed into the desert everywhere. Well, that's the report that was in the LA Times that I read and it I and a couple other people went looking for his dry mine because they record their mining operation. Yeah. Yeah. Little brain crowns that Yeah. But back then that way back then you recorded your mining operation with the rock that looks like an eagle next to the soral uh cactus, you know, facing due west, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah. It only took us about two weeks to find it. We found it. And the the uh partially circle impact area where it hit the rocks and scattered other rocks, it's still there. You could see it and the some of the tracks of the heavy vehicles are still there. They never gone away because it never rains out there, you know, out there. Yeah. And we found the wreckage of the plane six miles away in the middle of the big open area. You did? Yeah. Burned out Hulk. Metal you like? Yeah. Metal plane. I mean, it was a like a piper cub or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it it just augured into the ground and burned. So So So there was a crash between a disc and a plane. Yeah. The Jack Raget. Everything this guy's saying is true. We went after that we went to the LA Times and asked them if they had this metal in their safe and no it wasn't there. So can we see the log book? Oh my god. That's somewhere in the dump downstairs. The basement. It's in a pile of We went down there and we spent three hours and found a log book and it's logged in. But the piece is gone. Long gone. Yeah. Right. So the report's all true. Now whether the guy is smoking in the desert, that's still a possibility. Yeah. be a jack a 4 foot jack rabbit coming out of a side door of a saucer and ripping off down out of the Why not? Yeah. Yeah, why not? Yeah, sure. I like the way you think. Why not? Well, then isn't it, I mean, so you went out there physically, but you could also remote view it, too. Even Even blind, I guess. If you think you got to go do it, if you know you're doing it, that's not the right way. Right. I can't I can't. But we could blind read you into it. Yeah. I can't But I can't pick my own target. No, you can't pick your own target. Now, the reason I The reason I know about the other one that was caught in overhead uh that was doing 4,000 mph or whatever is because that was a target I got in Stargate because the people that took the overhead didn't know what it was. Now, what's interesting about this is I got to see the actual blowoff of that f those it was three photos came out of the bottom of one frame, rolled over in the second frame and exited from the bottom of the third frame. So, if you know how fast that string of pictures is taken, we can guesstimate all that stuff. So, and you could see the these 120 foot 140 foot fur trees out of focus below it. Mhm. So, what's interesting to me is that most of that holds true, but when I tried to obtain my own copies of those films, um I was uh questioned by the Naval Investigative Service that NIS who guard the stuff that the NRO takes. uh why I asked for three missing photos that nothing has ever been missing out of that their office and those three photos are gone. So now having said that I know when I saw it blown up that was a UFO. Mhm. And what they said to me, these two characters that I met in the Pentagon who showed it to me, what they said was, "Um, you sir will forever more know this is a high altitude weather balloon." I said, I said, "No, I can see it's a UFO." Man, boy, did they explode when I said that. and and they wanted me to sign an NDA. And I said, I can't sign an NDA. Why not? Because then I got a line to my commander. I can't do that. And so, well, we'll talk to your commander. I said, go ahead. And they did. And he said, you did the right thing, Joe. Like being able to talk to me about it now. Yeah. And but the the uh interesting thing about it is I talked to someone else, a scientist, who said, "Remember that thing you told me about the UFO that came in one frame, went up the other." I said, "Yeah." He said, "Well, I saw those three pictures at Wright Patterson Air Base." I said, "Really?" He said, "Yeah, they brought them out. show shoved to me. You know what it was? I said, what? A high altitude weather balloon. And I said, did they have the first thing out of my mouth was did they have a lot of numbers around them? Yeah. And he and he said, no, I don't remember numbers. And I said, then they showed you some bogus picture. Yeah. Some doctor. It's like crazy stuff. We had You got to understand we had I had no control over my targets at all. Yeah. Can you pick your own targets ever? You Well, you you can't. There's a way you can do that. And put a deck of cards and just pick a card. No. No. What you do is you can write out say 450 questions that you want answered, right? Write them on 3x5 cards. They make an envelope you can't see through that a 3x5 card will just fit in. Yep. You put them all in those envelopes unmarked. Yeah. And you put them in a big green leaf bag and you shake it up. And every day for about four years, you go in and pull one out. Oh my goodness. and and you put it up and and whatever comes to mind, you put it on your screen on your computer. Mhm. And then open the envelope and if it seems to match, the question seems to match the answer, you type it at the top, save it to a a file. Okay. If it doesn't, you take the 3x5 card that you just looked at, you put it in a new envelope, stick it back in leaf bag. Yeah. Right. How many how many leaf bags do you have? No, it's how how big a leaf bag you have. Yeah. No, once in a while my tasker, who is my wife, will stick one in the p the oneup pile of envelopes that I I just have a Well, I did I don't do this anymore, but if I had a stack envelopes on my desk, she just stick a new envelope under the bottom. I just work them one down. Yeah. And uh I I don't care what they are. I just do whatever the viewing says. That's how I work. I was watching an interview with Skipped Awar and he had mentioned that you knew somebody in you meant dowsing. You have a friend in dowsing or something. Oh yeah. Francis. That's right. And I also knew uh uh Bull uh Leon Bull. Not Leon. It was uh I can't remember his first name right now. He was he was the president of the American Dell Association. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And I sent me down this huge rabbit hole of dowsing and I I How does that relate to with the to is it all in kind of it's all the same thing. It's all the same thing. Dowsing is interesting because you don't know the answer. So you're just looking for the answer using a dowsing tool. Yeah. You know, and that could be anything. You know, you could walk around and use your feet as a dowsing tool. Just order your left eye not to blink till you're stepping on it. Oh, okay. And when you step on it, your left eye blinks. Yeah. Right. Um I did some work for a guy on a piece of property. It was like uh 12 maybe 13 acres and it was a a big time drug dealer they arrested and they thought that he had hidden a body on the property. If they could find the body, they could try him for it. He'd be spending a lot more time in jail. And uh so they brought me in there and showed me the property and they asked me to tell him where the body was. So I spent a number of days there walking around and I called him on the phone. I said I found the body and oh he got all excited and he came out. I took him into the forest there and I said it's right in. Oh, you're standing on it. And he jumped to the right. I said now you're standing on the second bot. Jump to the right. Now that's the third body. He says, "How many bodies are in here?" I said, "Four." Right in the perfect line. So they excavated the bodies and they were all Confederate soldiers that were buried there for the Civil War. No way. Wow. And he said, "I didn't mean a a Civil War body." I said, "Hey, you didn't specify. You just said you wanted a Boppy. I found you four of them." You got it. You know, right conveniently located together. Expectation of answer. So they moved him to a formal cemetery for the civil war. Um, and so it is this kind of intuition. I don't it's this it's a gut feeling. It's kind of what anyone would call a gut feeling, but it's it's it's magnifying that. There's a lot of way Yeah. There's a lot of ways of doing that. Yeah. I'm trying to figure out how to talk about it. How to have the right language around it. Yeah. You can use a pendulum to tell you yes and no. Yep. Uh, in the pendulum, you got to tune it first because everybody's no is different. Everybody's yes is different. Uh, the same with you can take a a paper plat of the area that you're looking for something on and you can put a ruler on it and as you drag the rule down where the ruler sticks. Yeah. Draw a line. It will stick if you order your hand to make it stick when it gets to the point it crosses that place. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So, you got to kind of half be attentive and half not attentive. Yeah. Right. Things like that. So, but ding works really well. Psychometry works even better. What's that? Psychometry is when you have something sealed in a box. You just put your hand on top of the box and try to pick up what's in it. Try to pick it up. Feel it. Oh, feel it. Feel what it is. See what it is with your senses. We did one of those in uh Stargate and it was an object taken out of a museum temporarily for our use. And there were three of us. And when all three of us did the psychometry on the same day, same time, uh it became a complete story. The first guy talked about the first 50 years, second 50 years, third 50 years, story of the object. Yeah. Wow. It was kind of cool. It just stitched the entire history together. Wow. How does that work? Yeah. Right. How same way remote viewing works. Don't you understand? Got it. I have more questions. Yeah. Than answers, it seems. are, you know, not answers, but but you have you have to really you can know what it is you're looking for, but you have to be blind on where it is. And and there's a lot of things that happen like there there are dowsers who think that it's best guess. And so they'll come and they'll look around the area and see, well, they wouldn't bury something over there cuz it's all rock. And you wouldn't bury something over here cuz it's all old trees. Yeah. But maybe over here where the ground looks kind of soft. Dowsing. Okay. That's dowsing, right? Yeah. That's what they call it. Um and and they'll they'll hit every now and then that way. Sure. Um but I'm trying to think of a really good dowsing thing I did. I got a letter from a woman in in France. She had bought a piece of mountain property. It was on the side of a mountain and it was maybe 60 acres and she had it dowed for water and she had to do that three times and all three dowsers told her there's no water here and she wanted to put a B&B in there. Is that a great view? And she said it to me. She said, "Is it true there's no water here?" And I sent her back a place where she could drill an X. She got an aquifer out of it. Wow. So, I'm sure that the water dowsers in France all know geology and that sort of thing. And the water would collect here and not here and over there and all that. Well, they were just wrong. Yeah. And what's almost hard to do blind dowsing because you're you have to walk around the property and let only use I used the plat shea me. Yeah. It's almost like the more you learn about geology, the worse you could be at dousing because your your logic is going to try and take over from hearing or from reading stuff. One of the weirdest things I ever I ever did, I uh went to a villa right outside of Paris that that my client flew me there and he was looking for some special papers and uh he said, "I I think they're hidden here because I found one of the papers, one one paper from the group with pigeon crap all over it under some hay bales up in the tower. So, I'm pretty sure it's here. I just need somebody who really is familiar with secret hiding places and things to find it. So, my wife and I went there and uh it turns out that there's a 15t wall around this place with broken glass in the top because the guy who built the villa, it's on a hill overlooking a village. He built the villa to keep the lepers away from his well, the wall and everything. it he he got tired of lepers trying to get to his well. It was a hand dug well. So he put this wall in all the broken glass and whatnot. So I'm over there looking for the papers. Initially didn't find the papers, but we found a secret staircase we dug out going in the middle of the garden going into the ground. When we got into a cave at the end of the staircase, there was little small cable like openings all around the inside of that cave with little wooden doors. That's where all the lepers lived. Oh, okay. And they got there through a hidden thing that went under the wall and down the side of the mountain to the chapel that he built. And inside the chapel was another hidden staircase that went down another tunnel and came out the basement of a house in the village. And I found all that. When I came out of the house in the basement of the village, I scared the crap out of some guy. It was making beer. He'd been living there 20 years and never knew it was in the basement. So, I'm telling the uh client about how the lepers were dug a tunnel to the well from where they lived. And where the well came down, it went out like this in the bottom and made like a small beach all around the outside. And what we found all around that beach was old clothes, dishes. So they're washing their dishes in there, getting their water there, washing their clothes. These are lepers and this guy's a free leopard. So, and then we found another secret staircase in the uh very close between the main building and the graveyard. And it went down the side of a wall that was kind of hidden. It was buried in the ground, but then it made a hard right turn and and like 30 ft under the ground, you came into this al cove. It was like a storage room shaped like that with the bricks making arches. Excuse me. So, we're looking in there. There's nothing in there. Just a gravel floor in this arch room. And we found a secret hole in the wall. We removed that stone. And there's another stair. You crawl through there into a little alco. Another staircase going down to an identical room under that one with four or three four three German bodies, skeletons buried face down in the gravel. You could tell because the backs of the skulls were out of the gravel. and one of the the fingers on one hand and on the wall was their ranks and names. No way. Yeah. So, we copied it down and reported it uh so that the families of those people would know how they died. Obviously, the resistance killed them or something. So, we're finding all this stuff, but we're not finding any papers. We're finding everything, but no papers. Uh so we're having a picnic outside just before uh we're going to go back to the hotel and the next day we're leaving on the plane. We were there like 7 days and we're having this beautiful picnic and there's this guy leasing the villa from my client and we're sitting there drinking wine and eating cheese and this wonderful bread whatnot in this garden and he's saying it's you know it's a real shame you didn't find the papers because the papers would have doubled the value of this painting collection they have and I said Yeah. And I'm looking at the guy leasing the villa sitting directly across from me. And every time we start talking about the papers, he did this. I said, you know, I think we could still find those papers. And he says, "Uh, how though?" I mean, and I looked at him. I said, "Well, why don't we ask your leaser here?" And he goes, "Okay, okay. I know where they are." He found them in the tower and put them in his closet and he said it looked like they were important. The only place he hadn't looked yet. Yeah. Yeah. So that was really wild. But to find the lepers living right there so they could get to the well basically they dug in underneath the wall and everything, it's like wow. That's incredible. Yeah. Uh we were just talking uh yesterday about how we've lost a we lo we I think we lost a lot of knowledge at the at the li when the library of Alexandria was destroyed. Oh yeah. burned to the ground. Yeah. Yeah. And like do you think that some of this knowledge was maybe known long longer ago a couple thousand years a you know and then we lost some of that information oldest the oldest remote viewing in history is actually written in Greece and it involves the not only the oracle of deli but all the oracles. This this very rich man wanted some advice but he didn't know which oracle to go to. Now this is actually written by the Greeks. So what he did is he he hired uh some people to work for him. And what he did is he hired one for every oracle there was. And he said in the future 6 months from now at this time this date this day I want you to visit this oracle. He said this to each one of them. Visit this oracle. And on that specific time and date, on that day, ask the oracle to tell you what I'm doing. Okay? And he sent them out on the same date. And they're all they're all going to ask that question of all these different oracles at the same time. Got it? And at that same time, he'll be doing something that's completely different. So what he was doing, what he did is he built a fire in a cave. He's all by himself. And he he cooked fish and pork together in a cauldron made of brass or bronze. I can't remember now. Some, you know, some metal brass or bronze, but it had a 10 top. And he did it he did it on that particular day over that 2hour period. Almost all the guys came back and said this oracle said this that what they were all different. All the stories are different. The orac the guy who saw the oracle of deli came back and what he said was I never got a chance to ask her the date and time but she told me you were cooking fish and pork over a fire in a cave with a tin top on a brass call. That's how the Oracle of Deli got to be really famous. Wow. that's written in Greek. It's actually true true story. Do you think that anything like psychedelics or anything play a part in any of this? Because with oracles of Greece and I know there's a lot of speculation around Yep. Well, the Oracle of Deli had a room that had a second floor balcony in that room. It's like a big cutout in the side of the mountain. So you came into that room and there were arches underneath that went to these small tunnels and all those tunnels went way back into another room and that's where the oracle lived. No one ever saw the oracle. They could only hear her. And so the oracle you you wanted to visit the oracle, you would come in and you'd ask a question. Then you go up to the balcony and you stand in the balcony and the oracle would eventually get to your question and tell you the answer. On between the arches were these stansions and they had these metal things sticking out where they put a lot of the stuff in and set fire to it like torches. Yep. Well, that was hashish. Marijuana and hashes. Yeah. So, there's a blue haze in the upper deck. So no matter what the oracle said, the guy up there is going to know it. Yeah, it's true. Cuz he not leaving till the fires go out or whatever, you know. Yeah. But I mean there was a lot. So for drugs and things. Yeah. When you start getting in sooth and whatnot, the these were like uh special things with the shaman and and whatnot. In reality, I can tell you as a remote viewer, you don't take anything because the discipline of remote viewing can only be learned and expanded on by doing it right. And if you take one drug, it it just clouds everything. And so you just again, you go static. That even maybe the drug gave me the answer. alcohol, caffeine, or or any of like uh it not so much alcohol and caffeine because alcohol could be in wine or something you eat with your dinner. Yeah. Uh caffeine's the same way. Like I drink two cups of coffee, you go to sleep because I'm kind of HD ADHD. But um there are some things that won't cloud your mind that much like wants or something like a cup of like a glass of wine. Yeah. A glass of wine, a beer or whatever. But to be loaded and try to do it, forget it. Because you're disciplined. Your mental discipline shot down. Sure. You can't stay focused. You can't your machine isn't finely tuned. Right. Exactly. It's running on one cylinder. Yeah. Not a good one. Yeah. Right. So, so, uh, no, it really doesn't, uh, it's not part of the practice. It doesn't actually subtract. It's subtract. It doesn't super load it. It doesn't put a turbo on it or any of that stuff. But there are people that still insist on doing that, like uh, using uh, Hawwasa. Oh, yeah. Which is used in the DA church. Um, I I went and observed that up in uh Portland. I went to a deed church up there and went to two of their ceremonies and I sat in the second row back from the front and they passed the tea around and everybody drank it. I did not, but I was sitting next to this woman and she was very uh very specific about she did all this and everything. And then she started talking to me and we're talking together and all of a sudden in our discussion a third person is introduced. She starts answering a third person. She obviously can see this person and she's interacting and she's asking me if I can see the person. I said no. So she's describing the person to me. normal everyday conversation going on and then the person fades away and but she never acted drugged, drunk, any of that was just like a third person was there. So there's something about the hawasa that is important I think to religious ceremonies you know it really it really affects them in what they believe and how they believe it. So I there are and then shiks uh shiks in India sometimes use hashes for their religious ceremonies. In fact, I was with uh foreign officers at a school I went to out of the headquarters and the uh the seek was in our in our quarters in our vehicle cube and on Saturdays is when he did his worship and there'd always be a blue haze down on the end of the building and we'd all be down there laying up against the wall studying and we all had uh you know uh permission to avoid the uh urine trials and what while we were in this because of him because he would I he quite literally stung up the whole Yeah. the whole quarters that particular quarter. That was kind of funny. What was the was there a moment or what was the moment that you realized we don't we continue to exist after we die for you? For me it's uh my most Uh my most dynamic diet, that's not a good word for it. My most uh this impacting uh near-death experience was uh in Austria and uh I I quite literally died and they picked me up off the ground, put me in a car and it took them 40 minutes to get me to a clinic. They got me to the clinic. I was, according to the doctor, legally dead, but he brought me back. I was comeoma toast for 23 hours and I just suddenly sat up and this German patient next to me just went crazy. Later he said that when when I talked to him he said that uh well I didn't talk to him, my wife did. Um he said that when I sat up I looked at him and I had my eyes were crystal blue fire coming out of him and I said, "God's a white light. He can't die. Out the door he went. I'm done here. Yeah. But that that was such a profound [Music] experience. Now, I don't I don't think my heart actually stopped. I think it just went to the point where maybe one beat every four minutes or something. I I just don't conceivably see how I could have come back or stayed alive. Um, but that was the in the reports, the medical reports. So, they thought I was poisoned. So, they uh put me on a gurnie and put me in a took me to Munich, 200 kilometers away, and put me in a rust home. That was in 1970, I think. And they they were trying to figure out how much brain damage there was because I'm telling everybody, God's white light, you can't die. You know, they they know I'm brain damaged. uh that and plus I was probably brain damaged. Anyway, uh too many TV eyes or something. But um so I went through two psy staff psychiatrists. Uh the second one said um he's sitting there looking at me. He just leaned over and he said, "I want to get out of here. You have to be normal." And I thought about that. I leaned over and said, We both laughed. That's when I knew I'd be getting out of there. But um it it was very profound. So profound that I was pissed at having to be here. And I went into a major depression for like 3 months, maybe longer, six months. And I thought of so many different ways of taking my life because it was better. Way better. This is such a primitive place. I can't even describe it. I just didn't want to be here anymore. I knew what that was like. It was like, "Yeah, that's where you want to be." Yeah. And uh then I had a second experience. I was uh right in the middle of one of my nights when I'm sound asleep. I was awakened. Not actually, but I thought it was awakened. It was like a false awakening in a lucid dream. And I was dealing with an entity that sort of speed slapped me around. It was one of these. You you know what it's going to be like. What the hell's wrong with you? Nothing can happen to you here. Why don't you like enjoy the ride? Do something worthwhile. Kind of shook you out of it a little. Shook me out of it. It's like, hey, and I started thinking about that and I thought, well, yeah, why not? Yeah. So, I lost all my fear with death went away. Um, wanted to do something that was constructed and positive. Uh, became my natural need. And I think a lot of that has to do with why I did so well in remote viewing. I just it didn't make sense to me that we couldn't be magical humans. So, you know, it just profoundly changed me. I've been the same ever since. And the experience of that has changed not a single bit since it happened. It's just as real as it'll ever be. Why do you think we're here? Why are we here? Experience. The one thing we take with us, experience. Experience. Uh, imagine this. Uh, this is the last thing I'm going to tell you. Okay. If if we do something, we experience the outcome of that. Whether it's bad, good, or indifferent, we get to experience it. Well, everybody that's involved in that incident also has experience from it. So if we're the progenitors of it, that experience then becomes the whole the holistic experience becomes critically important. If we're walking away with only our part of it, that's that's not cool. So when we die, we actually do go over our entire life. It's like instantaneous. And the reason why is because every experience we've ever had on the planet in this lifetime, you suddenly get the full blast of all of it. Mhm. Which means our interaction in here right now when any of the three of us die, we get to know the effect we had on the other two. So if it's a good effect, it's the recounting of it, the experience, the things you learn from it are of extreme value. If it's not constructive, if it's destructive, we feel huge remorse and huge pain from having caused it on people as well as ourselves. So it's what I translate to mean heaven or hell. Hell is dying and coming to understand all the pain you've caused others and yourself. The full brunt of it. Uh heaven is knowing what you did that was right and how it affected others. And it could be thousands of other people because it it ripples through contact. So you can imagine what uh Ma Satan is feeling. Yeah. When he died now, it's going to take a long time for him to unbburden himself from that. And but it does take a long time to accept the reality when it's a good one. Mhm. It like it teaches you your your next lifetime or your next thing you do is going to be far more valuable because now you're carrying that experience into that. That's how I think it works. Mhm. And I think I sort of got a taste of that by by having that very profound air death experience. It's interesting. Yeah, it sort of corroborates. I've watched a lot of the NDE. There's a lot of there's a lot of YouTube channels with a bunch of NDE stories and a lot of them go into this life review that they talk about and how Yeah. And it what it is is since you suddenly are enriched with the full experience. You think you just looked at your whole life. Yeah. When in fact you just remembered everything. Yeah. uh you're allowed that block is taken away and you're allowed to remember it all and it feels like you just did a life review and you got all the pain or all the good feelings. Yeah. Right. So that that's how I think it works. And if it does then there's other places we go that we don't come back here once we're satisfied with our experience here. Sure. And uh so maybe it's like a choose your own adventure kind of thing. Yeah. Come back here again or you can go somewhere else or Yeah. Well well you know it's like uh when I did the work for Ron Bryant he was what he told me was in one of my descriptors it it dealt with some issues in the uh string theory area. Oh okay. He said at that point string theory was being thought of as the strings are in circles which makes it a very confined thing in its outcome. The fact that I had the experience I had and gave him the information I gave him. He said it it kind of straighten those lines out. it by straightening lines out in string theory. What that does is it opens an entire world that could be 10 times bigger than this one. Yeah. And we could we could just be stepping from this one to there and it could be extremely credible or important. So I don't know that answer. I just there's no way to know it till you do it. That's right. Yeah. We're all just pondering and I will tell you experience you you live your life the best way you can and you won't have any fear of it. Yeah. You know, I've I watched people who told everybody what a good person they were and how hard they faked it. Mhm. And when death came rolling around, well, they fought it tooth and nails. And that did not make me uncomfortable. They sure made them uncomfortable. Uh, one of the remote viewers, well, all the remote viewers are dead now out of the original six except for me and one other. And two of them were my my probably two best friends in the world by the time we got to the end when I retired anyway or they died. Uh, one was his name was Hartley Trent. He was way better than I'll ever be. I mean, he was that good and he was a very honorable person. And when he was dying, he I don't know if it was from the calamity of Agent Orange or not, but he was in the hospital. I was there. Uh Skip Outwater was there. His wife was there. And he was comos playing in the bed. Not saying overt, he's dying, right? All of a sudden, his odds open. He sat up and he said, "What what are you guys doing here?" Oh, well, Harley, you wouldn't have missed this for the world. And he laugh, you know, it's like, "Oh, man. I'm so glad you're here." Joe, did you ever meet my uncle Thomas? No, I'm just throwing that name out because I don't remember what he said. Yeah. And he said, "Oh, Tom, this is Joe, one of my best friends. So I turn, I'm shaking air. Before he died, I met half his relatives that had passed in that room. And his wife was like, she said, I didn't know some of those people. Wow. Yeah. And they were they were And then he just said, you know, I'm really tired. He laid back gone just like that. This whole thing is like 30 minutes. Wow. It was incredible death. What an experience. Yeah, incredible death. Uh he's just an amazing guy. Um and another guy played a trick on him. He he collected uh hand painted Ottabon pictures of birds, had them framed and they were all over his office and his his uh his den. So we're visiting him. He's dying. He's laying on the couch in his den. And I said, "What can we do for you, Harley?" Harley says, "Well, I always wanted to paint this damn den. It's the walls are dingy. It takes away from the beauty of the birds." Okay. So, we get a color thing and we pick a color, a palette. Yeah. Pick a palette. So, he picks out a palette. Okay. Um, we go over there. We got the cans and the paint brushes, the tarps, all that stuff. So we take one picture off the wall and we put a little patch of paint on there and says that the color you like that's great. So he's laying there. You you just relax. We're going to paint your whole and we start with the brushes and we hear this. He's sound asleep. We look over. He's gone. We open the other can and take out the color that's already there. Paint over. Hang the picture back up. We take everything with us and we go see him the next day and it's like, you know, I had this dream last night. He finally woke up, caught us covering up. Yeah, that's pretty good. Yeah. I wanted to ask you I've never I've never like asked a psychic how how their dating life was. How did you meet your wife? How did I meet my wife? She was my trainer here. Oh, really? Yeah, she trained my last gateway. I guess you passed the test. Yeah. Did you see it coming? No, I see it coming. She did. She did. Well, I kind of did, but then I didn't because here's here's the truth of it. Uh, at the end of the gateway, uh, everybody was leaving and I said, "So, where are you going now?" She said, "I'm going home to feed my dogs." And so I said, "I want some help." So, I went home with her and fed the dogs and and from then on, we just started dating and whatnot. Yeah. And um but before that, what I didn't know is when she came back here from California, she had been selling textbooks in California. And uh she came back here and there was this woman, this other woman she knew really well. And this other woman says, "Why'd you come back here? There's there's no future for you there. It's the country. There's like And she said, "No, no, no, no. I I know no matter where I am, the perfect person's going to walk into my life." And so her friend said, "No, no. This is not going to happen by accident. We got a witchy mo." So, they had this little ceremony where they they talked about witching me up and and she said, "Well, how would I know? How would I know if this is the right guy?" And she said, "I get on the secondhand." Okay. Uh her friend said, "Uh, well, let's find out." And so, they did this little ceremony and the friend says, "Your engagement wedding ring is going to be different from any other. It's going to be an emerald. An emerald? Yeah. How expensive those are? She says, "Yeah, but that's what he's going to do. He's going to surprise you with an emerald." So, she wrote all this stuff in her journal. They're interacting. She put it all in her journal. I didn't know any of this stuff. So, just before I retired, they uh I had to go overseas with this colonel who had no experience. Had never been overseas. Joe, go with him and keep him out of trouble. Yeah. So, he loses his wallet drinking a beer in the airport at John F. Kennedy in New York. Somebody picked his pocket. Not even out of the country. He's lucky he had his passport on his inside coat pocket. So, I had to loan him money for the trip. So, so the colonel and I were were overseas and we're walking down this we did the job. We had, you know, we're walking down this shopping area and I walked past this window and it's got all these beautiful this beautiful jewelry in there and I said, you know, I might see if I can find something here for this special person back home. So I go inside and and the one thing about uh the folks in uh this is in Athens uh people who live in Athens and sell things. The first sale in the morning and the last sale in the evenings most important. So it turns out the the guy's walking to the door as I walk in. He goes around me, turns his open sign backwards, and locks a door. And I said, "Well, do you want me to leave?" And he said, "No, no, no. I will be glad to help you." So, I just became the most important customer on the planet. So, he says, "What are you interested?" I told him. So, he brings out this tray of jewelry. He show it to me and everything. And uh I picked this ring out. I said, "This is a ring I could like double in size for a wedding ring if I have to. It'll make a great engagement ring, too, or just a gift. It's an emerald set in gold." So, we start negotiating. Um, you never pay full price overseas. You always negotiate because they love to do that. They love negotiating. Yeah. It's part of part of the process. An hour later, I'm sitting in a They pushed in in a big easy chair, and I'm sitting in this big easy chair smoking Tur cigarettes and drinking this really sweet coffee. And and I'm saying something like, you know, we we supplied you guys with guns to fight the Nazis during the war. That should be worse than you're late negotiations table. So, this has been going on for an hour and every time I thought of something, he'd think something up. We both laugh and he keep going at it. And uh finally, we made a deal on the ring and half price. That's what I got it to. And then I pull out an American Express card and he goes, "Oh my god, not an American." I said, "Don't worry, I'll pay the 6%." And then he says, "What else? What else would you like?" And I said, "Well, I really like two of those dresses over there, but I don't have a clue what my friend what size she wears." And out comes six of his daughters. He lines them all up. He says, "Which one's closest?" So I'm in there almost three hours and there's this banging on the glass and it's the colonel. So I walked over and unlocked the door and open says, "Yeah." And he says, "What are you doing?" I said, "I'm negotiating, man. Go away." He says, "What the hell? What are you negotiating for? Don't worry about it. I'll be with you in a minute. Close, lock the door, go back." Four and a half hours. I got two dresses, a couple scarves, and a ring. And so I come out of there and we're shaking hands and patting each other on the back. Great guy, this uh this salesman. So he locks the door and turns out the lights and I'm walking down the walk and the colonel comes out of this coffee shop. We're walking. He said, "So what was so important?" 4 and 1/2 hour. So, I showed him what I got and the price and he goes, "Stop right here. Can I borrow two grand from you?" He said, "You got to go back and get something for my wife and my daughter." And I said, "No, sir. You go back and get it." And I'll tell you, you got to negotiate for quite a while to get it down. You need to handle 16 cups of coffee. Oh, that it's incredible. That's cool. So, you got an emerald ring. So, I come I don't know anything about her and the journal and her friend. So, I come home and I give her the ring and she said, "What's this for?" And I said, "Oh, let's call it an engagement ring." And she gets this funny look on her face and she I'll be right back. She goes in the back room. She comes out. She said, "Oh, wow. This is a I don't know what to say." And I'm like, "It's okay. It doesn't have to be an engagement ring. It be a gift." No. No. You don't understand. I witched you up about two and a half years [Laughter] ago. And we just had our 40th wedding anniversary. No way. Oh my gosh. and first wife seven years, second wife seven years, four years. Wow. So, it was uh absolutely meant to happen. That's incredible. Yeah. Congratulations. I love that story. Yeah. It's great. It's an incredible thing. And she said, "I knew all I had to do was wait." Walked right in. Now, it really wasn't as easy as I just explained. Yeah. because I was married divorced twice and I told her right up front when I gave her the ring, but we could call him engage ring, but you understand I don't ever want to get married again. I screwed up two of them. I don't want to mess up another one. That's okay. Don't worry about it. Okay. So, I tried to like stop dating her so much. So I stayed at Fort me like a month, didn't even call her. I finally I just couldn't stand anymore. So I went out and got the phone booth and called her and said, "Let's get [Laughter] married." So that's how it actually happened. She wasn't sure whether we were going to get married or not. I wasn't sure. Yeah. And what I finally told her is um I'd rather spend a month with you and get a divorce and not marry you at all. Yeah. Right. It's like, you know, I just can't. And and I got to tell you, we are so well matched, it's not even funny. She's Bob Monroe's stepdaughter. Oh. So Bob Monroe is my father-in-law. Oh, okay. Yeah. Wow. Didn't make us get along any better, but Joe, these have been amazing stories and thanks for taking the time. Do you have any other questions actually? And well, do you want to share a story with Bob Monroe? I I've just Oh, sure. So, he just finished. I helped him build this house up on the mountain. So, he just finished building the house. He moved in. We're having a dinner party to celebrate. And after dinner, we went out on the screen porch to have coffee. So, we're sitting out there and we're drinking coffee and and there's this storm rolling in, you know, big dark black clouds and lightning and everything is coming in and the rain starts. It's a nice gentle rain and Bob's out there with a cup of coffee and nobody's saying anything. and he looks around and he says, "You know, this is the beauty of being on a mountaintop when there's a rainstorm and you got a screening porch and you're dry and you're drinking your best cup of coffee and just kind of relaxing and boom, this lightning hits this tree right next to the corner of the screen in Bor and blew it to blew it to pieces and there's big shards of trees sticking in the screen and everything and everybody body's like dropped their cup. Oh my god. And Bob goes, "Time to go in." That's a great story. Yeah. Now he Oh, I went went to his office every morning. He's writing his third book and he said, "Um, here, read this. I wrote this last night." That's why I read it. Said, "Did you understand it?" Oh, no. I I'm sorry I didn't understand a word. So he explains it to me and then the uh next day I go in and it's the same thing and I said can you like go over the last yesterday too so I can figure out how it fits each other. His book was really tough to read his third book but it got published eventually. Uh he was a very very comp complex human being. He really was. I loved being around him. He every idea he ever had was 10 years ahead of his time. That's why many of them didn't work out. Yeah. Right. Um too early is just as bad as too late. Yeah. Yeah. He had an idea 12 years before it ever happened of setting up a bunch of phones, hiring a bunch of psychics. You would answer the phone and say, "What's your problem?" "Oh, let me ask the computer and give him the psychic answer." And uh even had a backer who would put the phones in and pay the whole bill. So, let's get this done. And Bob said, "No, let's think about it." So he never did it. And then 10 years later, Psychics of California or Arizona or something had a whole phone system set up, you know, where he could call. But he always had this like these ideas and he would attempt to do them and they would work for a short while and then collapse and then 10 years later somebody would do it again and it would work perfectly. Yeah, like he he uh he bought a uh television station in Charlottesville and his idea was he's going to tape a 30 minute tape of news and then copy it and mail the tapes out to all the local news station and they could play that over and over and over when they weren't showing other stuff. No, nobody agreed. It was like, "No, who wants to see the news over and over and over?" Yeah. Who who indeed? Great question. Yeah. And it was that kind of thing, you know, you just have the idea and it just uh wouldn't pan out. So, but there were a lot of ideas we had that did. It does seem to be something physical with the binaural beats. It's just incredible. You know how the brain drops the del the delta or only like and that that it is something about frequency that then changes our state combined with other things. Yeah. That I I I'm still trying to wrap my head around kind of how that Yeah. It the uh the frequency business that he did he a lot of people wanted to know what are the frequencies? How do you do it? What's the mixture? And Bob would take him in the lab and he had all this equipment. I know. I installed it all for him. And all that equipment had lights and switches and buzzers and noise makers and all that all over it. None of it. Nothing. And he would sit there with someone and he'd say, "Now look, when you're doing this frequency, you got to be really careful." And while pay attention, pay attention. He kept saying that. Down here, his left hand was doing something else. Yeah, he protected his stuff. Wow. He never shared it entirely with anybody. Even to this day or how's what's No, it Well, it eventually he did because he reached a point where he couldn't do it anymore. We had to. Okay. To keep going. Yeah. But early on he didn't want to share that with anybody. He didn't want to share. Yeah. Uh, and he and he would he would sit in the lab sometimes all night working with certain frequencies and I would watch him and and many a night I would be in there cleaning or meditating or soldering something and and he'd sit there and he'd be sitting there like this and you see his eyes do this. Oh, that's a good one. You know, you write it down. I like the hour and a half. Yeah. Hour and a nap. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting guy, but uh he could get angry, too. He He was a, like I say, he's accomplished guy. Uh his daughter, my wife, if it weren't for her and his wife, Nancy Penn, this place wouldn't exist. U it's a special place out here. Yeah, did a huge amount of work here. Uh, a lot of people did a huge amount of work helping him uh build this place and there were a lot of people that put a lot of time in and really cared about him and we did a lot of exploration in the lab here using the uh sounds that he developed. Is there a relation with the pineal gland and kind of making that do something? I've never heard was it Tom Camp where somebody making a reference to it or there just in experiments and stuff did did anything ever there's uh there there is a direct correlation to electromagnetics and there there's a guy named Persinger in uh Canada okay who has developed a what he calls a god helmet or something like that and has electromagnetic built into the sides of it and uh you put that on and and at certain frequencies you'll suddenly go, "Oh my god, I just met God." Wow. You actually have that feeling. Yeah. Or I met an angel or I met the devil or I did this, I did that. And so his position is it's all electromagnetics. It's that's what music does when you wear headsets. you know that I understand his need for saying that but I disagree with him wholeheartedly and the reason I disagree because you can artificially induce something does not mean unart unartificially what you're doing creating the same effect it's not happening in other words one does not negate the other it's true and So I I I I've been so long in the science side of things um that uh I I understand research really well and there's a lot of statements made by scientists that are wrong. You can't you can't say you did a because you simulated something that's done a different way. No, it just it may appear to be the same. Yeah. Doesn't guarantee it is. Um, in fact, I I'm the only guy in history that got, you know, the parasychological association has got I don't know, 1500 members all over the world. Okay. Every single member has to have a doctorate. They're all researchers or professors in college. Oh, man. I have a I have a full membership when I didn't even have a degree. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That's how much I've been involved in research. That's amazing. I have a degree now. I graduated when I was 72. Sure. Right. Nice. Got my degree in uh psych in uh sociology. Yeah. And and I did that deliberately because they were doing away with it. You know, the word social is communist. That's right. Uh, and I said, "What are you replacing it with?" They said, "Uh, the humanities." I said, "Oh, that sounds really sweet. What is it?" "Well, we don't know yet." "Oh, so you're replacing the entire field of sociology with something you're not even sure about." Yeah. Well, I want sociology. Well, you better do it in the next month. So, I got it. But the the thing about it was when I joined the army, I didn't care about degrees. But, you know, I grew up with my father and that stuff never matter matter to me. What a man does and knows what he is is more important that you understand yourself so deeply that you don't care what other people say. That that's how I grew up. So whenever I wanted to know something, I would go to this teachers college in New York and sign up for courses. So over my career in the army, I accumulated through about 325 credit hours. So they caught me. They called me on the phone one day and said, "You can't do what you're doing. You have to have a degree. This is a teachers college. you come here to support what you're doing. And I said, I thought education was about learning. You know, when I want to know something, that's when I go to school. I think that's a fine way to learn something. That's great. Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. You have to have a degree if you want to continue going here. Okay. What degree in myriad of subjects can I qualify for? Yeah. five subjects, but you have to have one course in all five. So, they listed them and I said, "Sociology sounds kind of cool. I think I'm going to do that because I've always wondered what motivates people to do things." Yeah. And that's why uh why I took it. Um but I had to finish a course. So I signed up, took the course, and as soon as I signed up, took started the course, I had surgery on my spine. So I'm flat on my back for the entire month with a laptop tucked under my my chin like a like a [Laughter] violin, but I finished it, went up to New York, and uh graduated in the normal graduation ceremony. Yeah. which was a stitch. They I'm 72 years old. So they assign they assigned five postgrads to keep me from wandering off. Don't let him wander off. I'm I'm listening to this. They think I'm I'm deaf, too. Yeah. Um make sure he has whatever he needs so he won't wander off. Yeah, it was a riot. It was really fun. So I I graduated the very next morning when I got out of bed. I where I had had the surgery uh was infected. So my poor wife drives me all the way from New York back to the University of Virginia in Charlesville and uh by the time I got back here, I'm running a really high fever. So they want to see where the damage is. So they put me in the MRI. I'm in the MRI and I said, I'm halfway through the MRI and I said, you know, you you got to get me out of here because I'm starting hallucinate. So I think my fever's pretty high. I'm starting hallucinate. And then the doctor says, running the MRI says over the speaker, I thought you guys in the army were tough. Oh my god. And I said, "Well, you're going to I'm going to demonstrate that to you in a few minutes. If you don't get me out of here, I'm going to chew my weight out of here." So, he stops the whole thing, gets me out. The nurse comes over and takes my temperature. 107. Oh my goodness. Right in the O. They completely opened my spine up and flushed everything with six lers of antibiotics and It was nipp. Wow. Turns out I had MRSA. Oh man. So I had that twice now. Fought it off both times. But boy, I mean coming back from that stuff is really hard. There's a lot of physical therapy or like Oh yeah, huge amount of physical therapy. I live by therapy. Oh, it sounds like Yeah. When you like, you know, fall off a bike and break something, it's like Yeah. therapy. And I've been falling out of things. You lived a very eventful life. Yeah. So, anyway, I might have to Yeah. This has been fantastic, man. Yeah. Thanks for spending some time with us. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a lot of fun. Can't tell you how much it means to us. Yeah. I can't believe the stories. I can't believe I can't believe what you've done. I didn't I didn't talk about any of the bad ones. You are a walking story. Well, appreciate you taking the time and you know uh we really love the Monroe Institute. Yeah, you guys hosted us. A great place. Yeah, we want everybody to know about it. So they like just remember you're more in your physical body. That's right. That's right. Big time war. Roger that. All right, we'll get out of here. Yeah, mayor. No, thank you. Thank you. Appreciate you. Yeah, man. Bye, everybody.